In or Out of Europe?

As with anything like this, there is no easy "yes" or "no" answer. If it were that simple, we'd all agree. The trouble is, being in or out of Europe will benefit certain people in different ways. My personal opinion is that as yet, I don't have enough facts ( will I ever ? ) to make a definite choice. I will try to study up on things and my early hunch is I will vote to leave Europe. We didn't do too bad before we joined after all.

“The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe.”  Mikhail Gorbachev

The Soviet Union was a complete failure, a paragon of inefficiency and corruption and it fell apart under it's own weight. Many countries banded together and everyone equal and all work for a common goal sounds great, but it can never work, for a great many reasons. Remember many of the top people running the EU are communists or ex communists including Angela Merkel, arguably the most powerful politician in the EU.

Imagine it this way. 30 Uni students agree to rent a big house. The deal is all pay an equal amount of their share of the bills and an equal share of the chores. But the deal turns sour, because some are paying their share of the rent, but others are blowing their rent money on booze and weed. Other are lumbered up with keeping the house clean etc. while others doss in bed all day. Pretty soon it all falls apart.

I can understand the Labour party wanting in, but could never understand why the Tories wanted to be part of a carbon copy the USSR. The hard truth is this, the only system that works is the survival of the strongest. The strong do not pull the weak up, the weak pull the strong down. The only system that will ever work is true capitalism, but we now have a sort of phony capitalism. A typical example is the massively corrupt banks and the politicians they own. The bank makes a profit and the shareholders get the profit, the bank makes a loss, and we get the bill. Since 2008 no major changes have been made to the banking rules. Now the stakes are much higher, countries and banks are in a far worse state than in 2008.

We must always remember this, the main stream media are almost totally controlled by very rich men, we get told what they want us to know. The BBC has become a mouth piece for the EU, the fact is they get money from the EU. But when you look beneath the surface much is going on we hardly ever hear about, and none of it is good.

You can take the view they have to lie 24/7 because if people knew the truth there would be riots on our streets, just as there is with so many countries on a daily basis, and getting worse. Our NHS, the armed forces, the police force and fire brigade are being ripped to pieces, and it is allowed to happen. Schools are over crowded with many parents not being able to get their kid into a local school. people waiting weeks for Doctors appointment, in short our infrastructures are collapsing, yet we pay £55 million a day into the EU and pay out billions in foreign aid, to countries that can afford nuclear weapons. Meanwhile our old and disabled people are desperate for help, with money and services cut back for these people on an ever increasing level.

This country belongs to us, our forbears died in massive numbers over a thousand years to make sure we kept it, and make it the best country in the world. We must take it back, we must rebuild our country. We can be great again, strong honest leaders must be found. It will not be easy, but we must hand over to the next generation more than a membership card to a failed EU and a mountain of debt and corruption.

Dude, I find that very contradictory, unless I'm reading it wrong, first quoting Gorbachev? Really? 

Are you saying that capitalism is the only system that works, but the the apparently capitalist Tory party are trying to create a communist state? So the tory party isn't to be trusted because they are not capitalist enough? 

Are all parties as bad or are labour better because they are more capitalist? 

Or should I try to stop reading clever stuff? Lol

I'm with Winston Churchill who said something like

"Democracy is absolutely the worst way to run a country - except for all the other ways that have been tried"

sorry I'm not helping much am I?

Andy12345 wrote:Dude, I find that very contradictory, unless I'm reading it wrong, first quoting Gorbachev? Really? 

Are you saying that capitalism is the only system that works, but the the apparently capitalist Tory party are trying to create a communist state? So the tory party isn't to be trusted because they are not capitalist enough? 

Are all parties as bad or are labour better because they are more capitalist? 

Or should I try to stop reading clever stuff? Lol

"Dude, I find that very contradictory, unless I'm reading it wrong, first quoting Gorbachev? Really?"

I think Gorbachev is one of the most important men in the last 50 years. It was down to him that Russia kicked communism into touch and many countries were freed from it's iron grip. It started the end of the cold war, although the US and the EU seems hell bet on staring it again.

"Are you saying that capitalism is the only system that works, but the the apparently capitalist Tory party are trying to create a communist state? So the Tory party isn't to be trusted because they are not capitalist enough?"

That is what I am saying yes, capitalism is the only system that works. But we don't have real capitalism any-more. Big outfits that fail like the banks are propped up with tax payer money. Some of the worlds largest companies that operate in the UK turnover £billions in the UK pay next to no tax, due to clever, highly dubious business practises.

"Are all parties as bad or are labour better because they are more capitalist?"

They are all bad, riddled to the core with greed and corruption. Remember Neil Kinnock the failed Labour leader. He and his wife have done very well out of the EU, their son in law is also on the payroll. As has Peter Mandleson another failed MP sacked twice for financial skulduggery. According to the papers yesterday 1000 people will lose their very highly paid jobs if we vote out. I would like to know what these people actually do for all the money they get.

A classic BBC ploy today, big bold headline Big firms warn EU exit 'threatens jobs but in the small print it says "However, nearly two-thirds of the UK's largest publicly listed businesses did not sign, including RBS and Barclays."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35636838

What an unedifying site to see yesterday in the house of commons, so many big name Labour Party MP's sucking up to Cameron. To most of 'em it's all just an earner, and the EU is just an elephants grave yard big earner for the failed UK politicos.

Thankyou Eddie, i thought Russia was still communist, Doh!

I also thought you were staunch labour

I really shouldn't get involved in grown up conversations

"Thankyou Eddie, i thought Russia was still communist, Doh!"

And world war two  has ended  

"I also thought you were staunch labour"

Staunch socialist big difference, but I once thought Labour offered the best hope for the working man, not any more.

"I really shouldn't get involved in grown up conversations"

Tell me mate, why is it when we speak on the phone, you come across as a very intelligent and articulate guy (which I am sure you are) but play the buffoon on forums? Is this more plonker pulling? we need to be told

dunno, I really did think Russia was communist, so I guess if you rang me and asked me about world politics I'd be the same as on here, also I did think socialist meant labour, the buffoonery is mostly genuine lol

The big problem is, if we leave the EU all these people with their snouts in the trough will demand a new trough over here. What will it be, the Privatised NHS PLC?

Graham makes an excellent point about the TTIP too, we will be forced to import even more USian crap like GM grains and soy.

Falling like dominoes: Now Holland wants own EU vote & Czechs say they might leave

With Britons due to decide on June 23 whether to exit the EU or remain tied to Brussels, there are growing signs other voters across the continent are craving their own chance to leave the crisis-stricken union.

In a new opinion poll in the Netherlands, a majority of voters said they backed the country having its own in/out referendum on EU membership, similar to the UK vote.

And Czech Republic prime minister Bohuslav Sobotka has warned if Britons do decide to leave the EU, a ‘Czexit’ could follow.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/646796/Dutch-voters-in-out-EU-referendum-Brexit-contagion-fears-Brussels-Jean-Claude-Juncker

The unelected bureaucrats running the EU have known for a long time, if one country can escape the corrupt quagmire, more will want out, and the doomed project will collapse. Greece should never have been allowed in under the EU rules. But the EU allowed Goldman Sachs to fiddle the books big time. So, we end up with a situation where Greece owes hundreds of billions of Euros that will never ever be paid back. Much more money will be needed to be pumped in to keep the country afloat. The muppets running the EU will punch our money into Greece forever, as long as it can keep Greece in the club. Because they know, if they leave, and they will survive leaving, their dream of taking over, in every way the whole of Europe will be over.

Whenever I hear about polls being done for the in or out of the EU they all say around 50% want out and around 20% don't know. Now, every paper has been running reader polls and when ever I press the out button this is the sort of number that come up. So, what's going on. This one from the Express today.

I watched Question Time last night and I must say, the arguments for leaving the EU seemed much stronger than those who wish to remain. The Tories keep saying how advantageous it is for us to stay in but last nights MP said the study has yet to be completed !!!!

I just watched it on I player, didn't give me any insight, other than reminding how much I hate the point scoring and how much I hate Diane abbot, didn't enjoy it at all

This young Woman got it spot on I reckon.

If I could find it I'd post what I'm pretty sure was a Not The Nine O'Clock News sketch on the Common Market giving the costs of joining by different countries. Ireland was "three hats", England was billions "We 'ave not forgotten Agincourt!"

A lot of truth in this great cartoon I fear.


From the Guardian the paper of the UK communist party. Everyone gets everything they want, but no one asks where the money is going to come from.

"I took the view that having fought [Europeans in the Second World War] that we should now work with them, and co-operate, and that was my first thought about it. Then how I saw how the European Union was developing, it was very obvious that what they had in mind was not democratic. ... And the way that Europe has developed is that the bankers and the multinational corporations have got very powerful positions, and if you come in on their terms, they will tell you what you can and cannot do. And that is unacceptable. My view about the European Union has always been not that I am hostile to foreigners, but that I am in favour of democracy ... I think they're building an empire there, they want us to be a part of their empire and I don't want that"

Tony Benn in 2013

my father in law was chatting to me yesterday and said, he thinks it would make sense to stay in europe, but that means the germans won the war, now as funny as that sounds, i can't get it out of my head

Today's Telegraph pole in or out. 71% want out.

According to the government 325,000 more people came into the UK over the last year than left. Yet the number of people applying for a national insurance number was over 600,000, one thing for sure, we are becoming very over crowded when you consider the amount of land we have. None of these figures takes into account the number of illegals entering the country.

To match England's population density of 413 people per square kilometre, European countries would have to take in the following numbers of migrants:-

Austria 26.4 million
Denmark 12.4 million
France 162.3 million
Germany 65.6 million
Greece 42.8 million
Italy 64.7 million
Poland 90.5 million
Romania 79.4 million
Spain 162.1 million
Sweden 176.3 million

If England had the same population density as France, it's population would be 14.5 million.

Source wiki

Whether we stay in or leave I'm confident life will get worse for most of us and better for the bankers.