Diabetes 102

martykendall wrote:
I'm surprised that the University of Sydney and Harvard who have been involved in developing this data aren't promoting the implications more.  This probably relates to the fact that it turns the grain based 'balanced diet' food recommendations for diabetics and the rest of the population on its head.  

Yes I suspect you're right.

I see this principally for Type 1s to better calculate their insulin dose.

Just a thought, have you contacted David Mendosa? He has a Satiety Index on his site, an Insulin Index would fit in nicely.

chris c wrote:

martykendall wrote:
I'm surprised that the University of Sydney and Harvard who have been involved in developing this data aren't promoting the implications more.  This probably relates to the fact that it turns the grain based 'balanced diet' food recommendations for diabetics and the rest of the population on its head.  

Yes I suspect you're right.

I see this principally for Type 1s to better calculate their insulin dose.

Just a thought, have you contacted David Mendosa? He has a Satiety Index on his site, an Insulin Index would fit in nicely.

So for type ones, which according to DUK's latest info is around around 4% of the UK betus list. Take away the one's that don't give a monkeys, take away the ones that believe their Medics are the second coming of Christ, take away the carb up and shoot up brigade, seems a pretty small list to me.

But what do I know.

"Just a thought, have you contacted David Mendosa? He has a Satiety Index on his site, an Insulin Index would fit in nicely."

Mendosa has an article about the FII and his friendship with Brand-Miller on his blog - see http://www.mendosa.com/blog/?p=3624

I posted a link to my interpretation of the data - https://optimisingnutrition.wordpress.com/2015/03/23/most-ketogenic-diet-foods/ - on his Facebook page in response to this article and didn't get a bite.

Some people get it and get excited about it some people can do fine without new learnings and extra information.

Interesting but little known fact, although Type 1 diabetics always have been and akways will be in the minority, the RATE OF INCREASE of Type 1 is actually higher than the rate of increase in Type 2. Especially adult onset/LADA which now outnumbers childhood onset by about 2:1

Interesting but little known fact <2> Type 2 actually has a higher genetic loading. 

One potential environmental factor for the increase in Type 1 may be gluten intolerance.

The big difference is that Type 1s can die quickly from an error, for Type 2s it may take longer and involve a lot of disintegration first.

martykendall wrote:
Mendosa has an article about the FII and his friendship with Brand-Miller on his blog - see http://www.mendosa.com/blog/?p=3624

Damn guy writes too much! I haven't kept up with his site for years now. Not sure I even knew he had a blog.

martykendall wrote:"Just a thought, have you contacted David Mendosa? He has a Satiety Index on his site, an Insulin Index would fit in nicely."

Mendosa has an article about the FII and his friendship with Brand-Miller on his blog - see http://www.mendosa.com/blog/?p=3624

I posted a link to my interpretation of the data - https://optimisingnutrition.wordpress.com/2015/03/23/most-ketogenic-diet-foods/ - on his Facebook page in response to this article and didn't get a bite.  

Some people get it and get excited about it some people can do fine without new learnings and extra information.  

"Some people get it and get excited about it some people can do fine without new learnings and extra information"

Can't argue with that. Mendoza wrote about the insulin index a long time ago as did I. But then again so much information we here about regarding safe diabetes control is balderdash or of use to a very limited amount of people. Yeah I know, second word off.

Let's keep talking.

I'm really glad you get it and are living it already Eddie.

I've tried on my blog to show how this stuff can be applied with simple lists of low insulin high nutriet foods (https://optimisingnutrition.wordpress.com/2015/04/06/optimal-foods-for-blood-sugar-regulation-and-nutritoinal-ketosis/) and meals (https://optimisingnutrition.wordpress.com/2015/03/22/recipes/). I've been really excited at the number of people who have printed these food lists, stuck them to their fridge and seen some great results in their diabetes control.

But in the end I didn't really set out to target 'everyman'. I'm not trying to dumb it down. I write long articles that try to explain my musings on nutrition. I'm targeting the thought leaders of the diabetes scene. I want feedback and refinement and if the concepts are valid may they can add to the conversation to build on the great work of people like Bernstein.

If it's so that a 6 year old kid should be able to understand it then why is a the diabetes and obesity sill ballooning out of control and crippling the health care system and economy? People who make the policy decisions that direct health funding and dietary advice need to be convinced with studies and data. Maybe my musings will help to add to the weight of evidence.

“Bernstein calls it the power of small numbers, the less the carbs the less the insulin equals greater control and insulin predictability, less margin for error and absolute minimum insulin requirements.”
Exactly!  Bernstein also talks about protein requiring insulin but I don’t think he quantifies it that well.  He also doesn’t talk about fibre that much.  He just says to go with 6, 12, 12 and have similar meals each day to refine the insulin dose.  Most people don’t eat exactly the same thing as him every day.   To understand the similarities and differences between my application of the insulin index and Bernstein please read https://optimisingnutrition.wordpress.com/2015/08/10/insulin-dosing-options-for-type-1-diabetes
“BTW an insulin injecting type two diabetic has up to three times the mortality rate (dose dependent) as a non-insulin using type two, there are various reason for this, but are scientifically proven.”
But they still don’t control their blood sugars at optimal levels and they have way too much insulin.  The aim is to reduce the insulin load of your diet.  Please read https://optimisingnutrition.wordpress.com/2015/03/22/ketosis-the-cure-for-diabetes/ for an explanation of insulin load.  It’s a lot like carb counting but with fibre and protein also considered.  I’m not trying to reinvent the wheel, just refine it and quantify it.  
“No well controlled low carbing T1 diabetic has high and lows.”  
Type 1 is still as massive challenge even if you are low carb, particularly due to gluconeogenesis of protein.   I see some people who have had type 1 for a short amount of time with some pancreatic function getting HbA1cs of less than 5, however for people who have had the disease for a lot longer and lost their pancreatic function they often find it much harder to achieve optimal blood glucose numbers.  Please read https://optimisingnutrition.wordpress.com/2015/08/02/standing-on-the-shoulders-of-giants/  
“They do not need a large amounts of bolus insulin or large amounts of basal insulin to hold constant safe BG numbers.”
Quantifying the insulin load rather than simply carb counting enables us to refine the diet to minimise the insulin load of the diet (i.e. Bernstein’s law of small numbers).  I’m an engineer and like to be able to quantify things, whether it is insulin or micronutrients.  
It seems you know everything you need to know, however I think that quantifying the benefits of a Bernstein like approach is helpful for people who want to follow it as well as to defend it to people who say that it’s unhealthy or non-nutritious.  
“With respect page views does not mean “the concept being used” I have had over 700 hundred readers read a blog post in a couple of days, that sort of post often goes onto thousands of reads, but tells me nothing regarding how many people are using my recommendations.”
Please see https://optimisingnutrition.wordpress.com/feedback/
“the benefits to the majority of diabetics is minimal”
Eddie, you are obviously well grounded in Bernstein and good diabetic practice that suits you as a type 2 to give you adequate control.  That’s great.
There are however heaps of people who are still getting told that even if they are obese / type 1 / type 2 / insulin resistant that they should just eat the diet that is promoted by the USDA (whose job it is to promote US grains).  My hope is that by elucidating that it is carb and protein that raises blood sugar and requires insulin (which they have in precious little supply as a type 1 or that doesn’t work so well for them if they’re type 2) that people will understand better Bernstein’s message.  
I enjoy debate and I crave feedback, however I am limited in time with my day job at the moment, so I would REALLY appreciate it if you would take the time to read the manifesto (https://optimisingnutrition.wordpress.com/manifesto/) and the more recent blog articles (https://optimisingnutrition.wordpress.com/2015/03/22/articles-2/) so you understand the whole context (rather than just critiquing isolated paragraphs that try to sum up much larger articles).   Then I would really welcome your feedback in the comments on the blog or here.  That way I hope that we would both get the most out of the interaction.

martykendall wrote:
I'm really glad you get it and are living it already Eddie.

I've tried on my blog to show how this stuff can be applied with simple lists of low insulin high nutriet foods (https://optimisingnutrition.wordpress.com/2015/04/06/optimal-foods-for-blood-sugar-regulation-and-nutritoinal-ketosis/) and meals (https://optimisingnutrition.wordpress.com/2015/03/22/recipes/). I've been really excited at the number of people who have printed these food lists, stuck them to their fridge and seen some great results in their diabetes control.

But in the end I didn't really set out to target 'everyman'. I'm not trying to dumb it down. I write long articles that try to explain my musings on nutrition. I'm targeting the thought leaders of the diabetes scene. I want feedback and refinement and if the concepts are valid may they can add to the conversation to build on the great work of people like Bernstein.

If it's so that a 6 year old kid should be able to understand it then why is a the diabetes and obesity sill ballooning out of control and crippling the health care system and economy? People who make the policy decisions that direct health funding and dietary advice need to be convinced with studies and data. Maybe my musings will help to add to the weight of evidence.

Hold up there, I am not getting the insulin index for the vast amount of diabetics. I have read your blog, a great piece of work. But more of academic interest than for the average diabetic. "I'm targeting the thought leaders of the diabetes scene" I have noticed that, how many are in it for money? "If it's so that a 6 year old kid should be able to understand it then why is a the diabetes and obesity sill ballooning out of control and crippling the health care system and economy?" because people are lied to morning noon and night, so many held in the vice like grip of junk food and big pharma. "Maybe my musings will help to add to the weight of evidence" let's hope so. These days I deal in fact, both scientific and the anecdotal evidence and good news stories from countless diabetics all over the world. They have achieved great things and I doubt 1% has even heard of the insulin index, nor do they have any need for it.

Good luck Marty anyone that gets people thinking is great, but my experience is people want the info as plain and logical as possible, they want to get sorted and get on with their lives. Almost anyone can make the plot far more complicated than it needs to be. I know of so many that earn a very good living from that malarkey. Not that I include you in that bunch of vultures. But hunting vultures is what I do.

martykendall wrote:“Bernstein calls it the power of small numbers, the less the carbs the less the insulin equals greater control and insulin predictability, less margin for error and absolute minimum insulin requirements.”
Exactly!  Bernstein also talks about protein requiring insulin but I don’t think he quantifies it that well.  He also doesn’t talk about fibre that much.  He just says to go with 6, 12, 12 and have similar meals each day to refine the insulin dose.  Most people don’t eat exactly the same thing as him every day.   To understand the similarities and differences between my application of the insulin index and Bernstein please read https://optimisingnutrition.wordpress.com/2015/08/10/insulin-dosing-options-for-type-1-diabetes
“BTW an insulin injecting type two diabetic has up to three times the mortality rate (dose dependent) as a non-insulin using type two, there are various reason for this, but are scientifically proven.”
But they still don’t control their blood sugars at optimal levels and they have way too much insulin.  The aim is to reduce the insulin load of your diet.  Please read https://optimisingnutrition.wordpress.com/2015/03/22/ketosis-the-cure-for-diabetes/ for an explanation of insulin load.  It’s a lot like carb counting but with fibre and protein also considered.  I’m not trying to reinvent the wheel, just refine it and quantify it.  
“No well controlled low carbing T1 diabetic has high and lows.”  
Type 1 is still as massive challenge even if you are low carb, particularly due to gluconeogenesis of protein.   I see some people who have had type 1 for a short amount of time with some pancreatic function getting HbA1cs of less than 5, however for people who have had the disease for a lot longer and lost their pancreatic function they often find it much harder to achieve optimal blood glucose numbers.  Please read https://optimisingnutrition.wordpress.com/2015/08/02/standing-on-the-shoulders-of-giants/  
“They do not need a large amounts of bolus insulin or large amounts of basal insulin to hold constant safe BG numbers.”
Quantifying the insulin load rather than simply carb counting enables us to refine the diet to minimise the insulin load of the diet (i.e. Bernstein’s law of small numbers).  I’m an engineer and like to be able to quantify things, whether it is insulin or micronutrients.  
It seems you know everything you need to know, however I think that quantifying the benefits of a Bernstein like approach is helpful for people who want to follow it as well as to defend it to people who say that it’s unhealthy or non-nutritious.  
“With respect page views does not mean “the concept being used” I have had over 700 hundred readers read a blog post in a couple of days, that sort of post often goes onto thousands of reads, but tells me nothing regarding how many people are using my recommendations.”
Please see https://optimisingnutrition.wordpress.com/feedback/
“the benefits to the majority of diabetics is minimal”
Eddie, you are obviously well grounded in Bernstein and good diabetic practice that suits you as a type 2 to give you adequate control.  That’s great.
There are however heaps of people who are still getting told that even if they are obese / type 1 / type 2 / insulin resistant that they should just eat the diet that is promoted by the USDA (whose job it is to promote US grains).  My hope is that by elucidating that it is carb and protein that raises blood sugar and requires insulin (which they have in precious little supply as a type 1 or that doesn’t work so well for them if they’re type 2) that people will understand better Bernstein’s message.  
I enjoy debate and I crave feedback, however I am limited in time with my day job at the moment, so I would REALLY appreciate it if you would take the time to read the manifesto (https://optimisingnutrition.wordpress.com/manifesto/) and the more recent blog articles (https://optimisingnutrition.wordpress.com/2015/03/22/articles-2/) so you understand the whole context (rather than just critiquing isolated paragraphs that try to sum up much larger articles).   Then I would really welcome your feedback in the comments on the blog or here.  That way I hope that we would both get the most out of the interaction.

Jeez, I need a lay down, will answer your latest post soon. Please give an old fool and even break.

martykendall wrote:“BTW an insulin injecting type two diabetic has up to three times the mortality rate (dose dependent) as a non-insulin using type two, there are various reason for this, but are scientifically proven.”

Actually we did know that Marty it was a topic on DCUK  sadly even though it contained a lot of compelling evidence it was deemed as scaremongering and the thread locked by a non diabetic admin

Thread closed. This isn't the place to be scaremongering and dishing out potentially dangerous information.

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/recent-insulin-study.50729/

"BTW an insulin injecting type two diabetic has up to three times the mortality rate (dose dependent) as a non-insulin using type two, there are various reason for this, but are scientifically proven."

Sorry, this is a quote from Eddie.

I was trying to respond to his comment.

martykendall wrote:"BTW an insulin injecting type two diabetic has up to three times the mortality rate (dose dependent) as a non-insulin using type two, there are various reason for this, but are scientifically proven."

Sorry, this is a quote from Eddie.  

I was trying to respond to his comment.  

Apologies Marty   perhaps it would help if you spaced your quotes 

OK Eddie.   Let me have a go at a simplified 'elevator pitch' on why I think the food insulin index data and analysis is useful.  

Exhibit 1: 1997 Holt paper measuring the insulin response to 38 foods.  

Observation:  Interesting, novel, but perhaps confusing and not that applicable.  

See http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/66/5/1264.full.pdf+html


Exhibit 2:  More recent FII data of more than 100 foods.  

Observation:  Insulin response is somewhat related to carbs, but there are some confounders when it comes to high protein foods.  This data suggests that carb counting alone may not fully explain our blood glucose and insulin response to foods.  Perhaps there is a better way?




Exhibit 3:  The FII data shows that the insulin demand and blood glucose response decreases with increasing fat content of our food.  

Observation:  Perhaps the advice given to diabetics to just eat what everyone else eats (including avoid fat because it causes heart disease) is not that good after all.    



Similarly, sugar, glycemic index and glycemic load all do a shabby job of predicting our insulin and blood sugar response to foods.  


Exhibit 4:  We can manipulate the FII data and find that the insulin and glucose response to foods is much more closely predicted by net carbs plus about half the protein.  

Observation:  If we want to control blood glucose / minimise insulin demand / work within the capacity of our own pancreas / insulin sensitivity then we should consume a diet that is low in net carbs, high in fibre and has moderate protein.  



This understanding can be used to priotise foods that will have the lowest impact on blood glucose (see https://optimisingnutrition.wordpress.com/2015/03/23/most-ketogenic-diet-foods/).  It can also be used to quantify the insulin requirements for people who are injecting insulin.  

While some people do just fine with a paleo or low carb approach when it comes to weight loss or blood sugar control, however some still struggle.  The really exciting applications of this theory are in helping type 1 diabetics who have had the disease for a long time or in theraputic ketosis (i.e. cancer, epilepsy etc).  

I suggest that the theory applies to everyone, however there is a sliding scale when it comes to how much you need to reduce the insulin load of your diet depending on your situation.  


Because high fat foods aren't necessarily high in fibre or a wide range of nutrients, it is even more useful to combine the FII with the nutrient density data to shortlist optimal foods for people with different goals (e.g. diabetes, weight loss, therapeutic ketosis or for people who are metabolically healthy).

If we can agree on the ground rules (i.e. our diet should maximise micronutirents, contain adequate fibre and not have a higher insulin load than our own body can process without gaining weight due to too much insulin or high blood glucose levels) then we can agree on a data driven approach to identify the most suitable foods for an individual without having to subscribe to a faith based system of nutrition (e.g. My Plate, Food Pyramid, paleo, low carb, Atkins, Bernstein etc).

chris c wrote:

martykendall wrote:
I'm surprised that the University of Sydney and Harvard who have been involved in developing this data aren't promoting the implications more.  This probably relates to the fact that it turns the grain based 'balanced diet' food recommendations for diabetics and the rest of the population on its head.  

Yes I suspect you're right.

I see this principally for Type 1s to better calculate their insulin dose.

Just a thought, have you contacted David Mendosa? He has a Satiety Index on his site, an Insulin Index would fit in nicely.

I suspect it's because it would cut into the profits made by Brand-Miller's GI index money-maker. Cynical, moi?

Indy51 wrote:I suspect it's because it would cut into the profits made by Brand-Miller's GI index money-maker. Cynical, moi?

Wouldn't it be nice to have a data-driven basis for determining which foods are ideal for different people so we don't have to rely on 'authorities' that are often polluted by the (appearance?) of a conflict of financial interest?

Eddie, what do you reckon? I reckon you could get behind and promote something like that hey?

martykendall wrote:

Indy51 wrote:I suspect it's because it would cut into the profits made by Brand-Miller's GI index money-maker. Cynical, moi?

Wouldn't it be nice to have a data-driven basis for determining which foods are ideal for different people so we don't have to rely on 'authorities' that are often polluted by the (appearance?) of a conflict of financial interest?  

Eddie, what do you reckon?  I reckon you could get behind and promote something like that hey?  

Hi Marty I will come back to you on your other long post but can you tell me about the financial side of the GI index and insulin index. Is this data subject to copywrite? If the work is printed in books or appears on packaged foods etc or in advertising are fees or royalties payable?

http://www.glycemicindex.com/testing_research.php

Price list available via email only.

“Bernstein calls it the power of small numbers, the less the carbs the less the insulin equals greater control and insulin predictability, less margin for error and absolute minimum insulin requirements.”
Exactly! Bernstein also talks about protein requiring insulin but I don’t think he quantifies it that well. He also doesn’t talk about fibre that much. He just says to go with 6, 12, 12 and have similar meals each day to refine the insulin dose. Most people don’t eat exactly the same thing as him every day. To understand the similarities and differences between my application of the insulin index and Bernstein please read https://optimisingnutrition.wordpress.com/2015/08/10/insulin-dosing-options-for-type-1-diabetes”

I follow Bernstein because I believe him to be the world's leading expert on blood glucose control as do many others. I agree not everyone follows his strict regime, but almost all well controlled diabetics are following a Bernstein type diet. A stiff reduction in carbs and more fat.

“BTW an insulin injecting type two diabetic has up to three times the mortality rate (dose dependent) as a non-insulin using type two, there are various reason for this, but are scientifically proven.”

“But they still don’t control their blood sugars at optimal levels and they have way too much insulin. The aim is to reduce the insulin load of your diet.”

I agree but the members here do control their diabetes very well, they do not have too much insulin sloshing around their systems hence they have and do lose weight, control BG, and many on nil or minimal meds. How do we fix something that is not broken? other than our metabolisms of course.

“Please read https://optimisingnutrition.wordpress.com/2015/03/22/ketosis-the-cure-for-diabetes/ for an explanation of insulin load. It’s a lot like carb counting but with fibre and protein also considered. I’m not trying to reinvent the wheel, just refine it and quantify it.”

In the early days I carb counted weighed food etc. took loads of blood tests. I dumped the foods that took BG to unacceptable numbers. Unsurprisingly all the starchy carbs and sugar had to go, end of. No problem with protein and fat, I have never ever even considered fibre other than to know I have no problem with all the low carb vegetables I eat.

“No well controlled low carbing T1 diabetic has high and lows.”
Type 1 is still as massive challenge even if you are low carb, particularly due to gluconeogenesis of protein. I see some people who have had type 1 for a short amount of time with some pancreatic function getting HbA1cs of less than 5, however for people who have had the disease for a lot longer and lost their pancreatic function they often find it much harder to achieve optimal blood glucose numbers. Please read https://optimisingnutrition.wordpress.com/2015/08/02/standing-on-the-shoulders-of-giants/”

Some diabetics will always have problems for many reasons. The so called “honeymoon period” you refer to is usually a very tough time for T1’s because of the erratic natural insulin output. It seems to me they are better off when natural insulin stops completely. As far as predictability is concerned and predictability is the name of the game for all of us diabetics.

“They do not need a large amounts of bolus insulin or large amounts of basal insulin to hold constant safe BG numbers.”
Quantifying the insulin load rather than simply carb counting enables us to refine the diet to minimise the insulin load of the diet (i.e. Bernstein’s law of small numbers). I’m an engineer and like to be able to quantify things, whether it is insulin or micronutrients.
It seems you know everything you need to know, however I think that quantifying the benefits of a Bernstein like approach is helpful for people who want to follow it as well as to defend it to people who say that it’s unhealthy or non-nutritious.”

I am an ex Aerospace Engineer (Bernstein is an ex Engineer) I like to be able to quantify, but human beings are not machines, and therefore the variables for every situation and every diabetic are beyond a certain level of calculation and predictability. And thank God we are otherwise we would all be robots.

“With respect page views does not mean “the concept being used” I have had over 700 hundred readers read a blog post in a couple of days, that sort of post often goes onto thousands of reads, but tells me nothing regarding how many people are using my recommendations.”
Please see https://optimisingnutrition.wordpress.com/feedback/
“the benefits to the majority of diabetics is minimal”
Eddie, you are obviously well grounded in Bernstein and good diabetic practice that suits you as a type 2 to give you adequate control. That’s great.
There are however heaps of people who are still getting told that even if they are obese / type 1 / type 2 / insulin resistant that they should just eat the diet that is promoted by the USDA”

No one is more aware than me regarding the totally ludicrous dietary guidelines for diabetics. It is the very reason why our crew have worked so hard to change the greed, corruption and madness.

I hope I have answered your questions, your post was lumped together in one lump, including your quotes and mine, and has been hard to sort out in the time I have today. Look forward to more chats.

Regards Eddie

Indy51 wrote:http://www.glycemicindex.com/testing_research.php

Price list available via email only.

Thank you Indy for the GI link, so this GI index malarkey is a money making scheme, if the insulin index is the same, I am beginning to see the wood through the trees. Money eh, I should have realised.

Problem for Syd Uni is that you don't need labels on real food - so no money in promoting the insulin index. Can't imagine veggie grower's associations paying to have an insulin index label on their products. I'm surprised the chick's PHD thesis was even approved since the outcome would affect their nice little money spinner. They probably wish it'd fade into the woodwork like most other inconvenient academic research.

Indy51 wrote:Problem for Syd Uni is that you don't need labels on real food - so no money in promoting the insulin index. Can't imagine veggie grower's associations paying to have an insulin index label on their products. I'm surprised the chick's PHD thesis was even approved since the outcome would affect their nice little money spinner. They probably wish it'd fade into the woodwork like most other inconvenient academic research.

As I said on the 102 thread, we learn nothing by playing nodding donkeys, I am learning so much today. So the bottom line is we are talking about earners, but Sidney University may have shot themselves in the foot with the insulin index, there seems to be a lot of that about on this forum today.

The GI index was complete garbage, as Barry Groves video GI Blues clearly demonstrated, perhaps that's why the "chick" came up with another earner.

Eddie said... "I'm targeting the thought leaders of the diabetes scene" I have noticed that, how many are in it for money?”

None of the ones that have taken an interest. Ted Naiman (BurnFatNotSugar) is a doctor. Ivor Cummings (FatEmporor.com)is an engineer. RD Dikeman from TypeOneGrti is a theoretical physicist with Lockheed Martin. Troy Stapleton is as radiologist. All of these guys I now call friends who have been very supportive and encouraging and all have day jobs.

“Because people are lied to morning noon and night, so many held in the vice like grip of junk food and big pharma.”

There’s also not good research out there to support low carb because there’s no money in telling people to eat low carb whole foods. The money is on the side of big pharma and big food. I have the FII data and the USDA food nutrient database which I have found very useful to demonstrate the optimal / ideal.

“Good luck Marty anyone that gets people thinking is great, but my experience is people want the info as plain and logical as possible, they want to get sorted and get on with their lives.”

I am trying to create simple applicable tools and lists that you can apply without going into the detail too much. The discussion and community on the Facebook group is also building really nicely. Seems some people are getting it and excited. One starfish at a time.
In the end though I’m just doing it for me and my family and maybe the people in the community that I see struggling to manage their diabetes in the TypeOneGrit group (https://www.facebook.com/groups/660633730675058/) that I’m a part of and have learned so much from over the past year.

If it helps a wider audience then that would be great. If it’s useful info people will share it. If it’s an indulgent intellectual waste of time I will have enjoyed myself and helped myself and my family and a smaller group of people. That’s the beauty of the democracy of the internet.

Eddie said “…can you tell me about the financial side of the GI index and insulin index. Is this data subject to copywrite? If the work is printed in books or appears on packaged foods etc or in advertising are fees or royalties payable?”

There seems to be a little industry built around the GI (http://www.glycemicindex.com/) with low GI endorsements going on various products, even low GI sugar! http://www.csrsugar.com.au/csr-sugar/our-products/better-you/logicane-low-gi-sugar/

The FII data is just published research that I’ve done my own interpretation and analysis of that makes sense to me. I have talked to a few people about the copyright issues on this and, given that it’s published data that I’m completely acknowledging the source of, then there’s no issue. I think it might get a bit more complex if I tried to set up a FII stamp that https://optimisingnutrition.wordpress.com/ would sell to food companies to put endorsements on their packaged foods.

I see that you’re trying to say that the FII data is guilty association with the GI which has been commercialised, however:

1. I think the data stands on its own as valid and useful, and
2. I can’t see that they’ve made an effort to commercialise the FII data, it’s just published research.

Eddie said “No problem with protein and fat, I have never ever even considered fibre other than to know I have no problem with all the low carb vegetables I eat.“

Agreed. Sounds like your system is working great for you as a type 2. However for a type 1 who is living on a high protein high starchy veggies diet and trying to calculate their insulin dose these things become more relevant.

Same goes for people aiming for therapeutic ketosis trying to minimise their insulin load the combat cancer or epilepsy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WitYoTGeno

I can’t say that I understand Einstein’s theory of relativity or apply it to my everyday life, but it doesn’t mean it’s not valid or irrelevant to me. Just because Eddie doesn’t need the FII to control his diabetes doesn’t mean it’s irrelevant.

Eddie said “In the early days I carb counted weighed food etc. took loads of blood tests. I dumped the foods that took BG to unacceptable numbers. Unsurprisingly all the starchy carbs and sugar had to go.”

So you’ve basically done the FII testing empirically in yourself. The FII data is useful because it helps to connect the dots to understand the relationship between macros and the blood sugar and insulin response.

Eddie said “The so called “honeymoon period” you refer to is usually a very tough time for T1’s…”

At least they have some endogenous insulin. Once that’s over and you’re injecting all of your insulin it becomes more challenging to achieve stable blood sugars. The primary aim of this is to find foods that will give my wife (who has had type 1 for 30 years) stable blood glucose levels without the rollercoaster.

Eddie said “I am an ex Aerospace Engineer (Bernstein is an ex Engineer) I like to be able to quantify, but human beings are not machines, and therefore the variables for every situation and every diabetic are beyond a certain level of calculation and predictability.”

But don’t you want to find and use relationships where they exist and could be helpful? If you could find the universal formula to solve all the diet debates and confusion, to provide clarity though the commercial conflicts, wouldn’t you want to be a part of that?