DCUK Quote of the year from Phoenix !

"It's as well to remember that Accord did use a cocktail of hypoglycaemic drugs so is a mile away from just using metformin or diet and exercise alone. (and also intensive meant below 6% not low 5s or less; it doesn't really provide any evidence about that)" Phoenix here. http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/can-hba1c-be-too-low.68973/page-7

Old timers at the flog will remember the low carb antis were almost orgasmic when the ACCORD study was published. The study was set up to see if outcomes for type two diabetics improved with a high meds regime set up to reduce BG numbers. So badly did the study go it was ended early, because far too many type two diabetics were dying. This was seen by the naysayers as proof non diabetic BG numbers was not worth achieving, in fact worse, non diabetic BG numbers could send you to an early grave.

The low carb antis trumpeted the grim news loud and wide, But, when you looked at the detail rather than the headline, it was easy to see why this study was doomed to fail. The subjects were long time very poorly controlled, many were morbidly obese, many had a history of heart problems etc, etc. In short many had one foot in the grave at the start. BTW no mention of diet was outlined in the study. So, the study was a farce and proved only one thing to me and others who can think straight, ramming highly elevated BG numbers down with a bag full of meds does not work, and it will never work.

Phoenix, by far and away the most well read and intelligent of the low carb antis at the flog, used the ACCORD study and many other at best dubious studies and information to push her high carb high med lifestyle. The question I am asking myself is, did she know the ACCORD study and many other papers and studies she copies and pastes ad nausea are a complete crock?

As she said today at the flog ""It's as well to remember that Accord did use a cocktail of hypoglycaemic drugs so is a mile away from just using metformin or diet and exercise alone" Too right, using the correct diet and nil/minimum meds, and regular exercise is a mile away from what she and her fellow antis have preached for years. The $64000 question is, why has she played the roll of technical adviser to the antis for years, when she has known all along, the low carb lifestyle was the only safe and reliable alternative for countless diabetics, type one and two.

Well most of this is well before my time Eddie. I agree with your sentiments, but I would like to dare to question one thing if I may?

Do you really believe that Phoenix has a high carb, high med lifestyle?

She used to have lots of exercise and has given me some good exercise advice in the past.

She states that she has a Mediterranean diet, surely this is the next best thing to LCHF for controlling diabetes? That diet is used by others at DCUK and they seem quite well controlled as long as they stick to it.

It probably seems like I'm always arguing with you, but you say you like debate(!) and I'm not trying to be awkward, it's a genuine question. Don't you think it's a valid argument that as type 1's/1.5's need insulin anyway there is a diminished return for cutting carbs very low, so it's easier to maintain good control with a slightly higher level of carbs? Surely maintaining good control is the main thing for all of us?

Is the Mediterranean diet so bad in your opinion?

Do I need to go to the naughty corner now?

There are real problem with the ACCORD interpretations is been used to justify keeping a high A1C and telling patients is dangerous to lower A1C below 6.5%. When you analyze the data the people that did badly on ACCORD were those in the intensive treatment that could not control their blood glucose and lower it. Even do they were using a lot of questionable drugs that are known to increase mortality risk. So they had double risk of high BG and medications that make them more harm than good. Lowering your BG to non diabetic numbers with low carb diet(glucose feed cancer, CVD and kidney problems), exercise and medication that lower mortality risk like metformin is good for diabetics and anyone that want to be healthy.

The problem with a Mediterranean diet is who define it and what it contains. Is the same as any diet you can make a vegan diet of just eating 3 times a day pizza and it will sure not be healthy. The same can be said of any diet full of junk food. If the Mediterranean diet is made full of low carbs vegetables, nuts, avocado and olive oil yes it can be an excellent diet.

zand wrote:Well most of this is well before my time Eddie.  I agree with your sentiments, but I would like to dare to question one thing if I may?  

Do you really believe that Phoenix has a high carb, high med lifestyle?  

She used to have lots of exercise and has given me some good exercise advice in the past.

She states that she has a Mediterranean diet, surely this is the next best thing to LCHF for controlling diabetes? That diet is used by others at DCUK and they seem quite well controlled as long as they stick to it.

It probably seems like I'm always arguing with you, but you say you like debate(!) and I'm not trying to be awkward, it's a genuine question.  Don't you think it's a valid argument that as type 1's/1.5's need insulin anyway there is a diminished return for cutting carbs very low, so it's easier to maintain good control with a slightly higher level of carbs?  Surely maintaining good control is the main thing for all of us?

Is the Mediterranean diet so bad in your opinion?

Do I need to go to the naughty corner now?

Firstly Phoenix has said on numerous occasions on various forums and blogs, she consumes around 40% of her daily food input as carbs. She is a physically active woman so if we take say 2000 calories a day equals 800 calories from carbs equals around 200 grams of carb per day. Not my idea of even moderate carb for a diabetic. I have just found this item posted by Phoenix who runs a blog called and posts elsewhere as OnePointFive.

"OnePointFive • 3 years ago

"Fred, please don't make such sweeping statements. Yes there are a group of diabetics who adopt low carb diets and do well. There are others that use alternative (mainly lower GI or med style diets) and also get good results. I ran a marathon in April, eat about 1800cal a day(the right amount for my age and gender so certainly not starving) About 45% of my diet is carb."

Link http://carbsanity.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/nutrition-and-metabolism-societys-ad.html

In the past when I have seriously criticised the US dietitian Hope Warshaw who advocates a very high carb diet for diabetics covered by high meds, Phoenix has defended Hope, again at the Carbsane blog. Carbsane is the most anti low carber on the planet. Her header states "Welcome all seeking refuge from low carb dogma!" Phoenix is an avid fan of Hope Warshaw and Carbsane.

As for the Mediterranean diet, that as all diets is open to a lot of interpretation, this is my idea of a healthy Mediterranean diet.


Smoked lemon and parsley mackerel, feta cheese, red peppers, green peppers, cucumber, tomato, black olives, red onion, and asparagus tips drizzled with extra virgin olive oil.

I recommend this diet to anyone, and I am glad to say our grandchildren eat this sort of food every day. As you can see, it is a million miles away from what Phoenix describes as a Mediterranean diet.

Thanks for your questions, as you would expect, I am willing and pleased to be challenged on any aspect of a low carb diet. I also have over six years of dealing with misinformation and skulduggery from the likes of Phoenix et al. BTW Zand the low carb crew have a huge amount of data re the antis they have posted over the years. This clearly demonstrates they have lied, misinformed and back tracked on numerous occasions. One thing I will never be able to work out, what motivates these people.

Well thanks for the reply Eddie. That's clarified things for me.