Home
Brian Cohen wrote:I feel constantly bombarded with claims that type 2 diabetes can be reversed and prevented. I even hear absurdities about how type 2 diabetes can be cured. I expect these things from the scams that we all see in our email inboxes and across the web. But what really sets my hair on fire is the use of these words by people who should know better. Medical professionals and our government should know better.
And unfortunately, when the leaders of the conversation send out a confused message our entire society follows them down the wrong path. So why does it matter? It matters because these words communicate meaning and concepts and when these concepts are inaccurate and misleading they can be harmful. It can leaves people with diabetes confused about their condition, encouraged to pursue bad goals, feeling blame and shame that they “didn’t do it right” and full of false hope.
Today, I’m going to focus on the phrase “Reversing Diabetes” and end with a plea that we stop using the term “reversing” and use the term “remission.” Nobody has ever shown that once you have type 2 diabetes that you can reverse the condition to become non-diabetic. All we can do is slow or stop the progression. Let’s start using the term remission when we successfully manage the symptoms of diabetes, we all know that our diabetes is still there and can and will rear it’s ugly head if we stray from our treatment.
The Phrase “Reversing Diabetes” Is Inaccurate:
So let’s examine the definition of the word “reverse” in the medical sense. Here is a medical definition of reverse (from this standard dictionary): A turning or changing to the opposite direction, as of a process, disease, symptom, or state.
So in the medical sense if we talk about reversing diabetes we need to talk about the reversal of the disease itself. This is different than reversing the symptoms of diabetes. Symptoms of diabetes (according the WHO) are of course hyperglycemia, increased urination, thirst, hunger and unexplained weight loss and we also consider the comorbidities of obesity, hypertension and abnormal cholesterol as symptoms of diabetes. Clearly if one normalizes blood sugars and all these symptoms improve or normalize to what is seen in a healthy state we would say that someone has reversed the symptoms of their diabetes. But have they really reversed their diabetes? I don’t think so.
Well this is where things have gone awry. For reasons that are beyond me the medical profession has decided to define reversal of diabetes as reversing the symptoms. According to webmd:
“The term ‘reversal’ is used when people can go off medication but still must engage in a lifestyle program in order to stay off,” says Ann Albright, PhD, RD. She’s the director of diabetes translation at the CDC.
By medications, we obviously mean medications which address hyperglycemia. I think it is totally absurd to consider medication as a treatment and that lifestyle is not a treatment.
And it doesn’t mean that your insulin resistance, insulin deficiency or other factors which impair the blood sugar response is improved. It only means that your blood sugar isn’t measured as being outside of a defined “norm.” And it doesn’t mean that you have addressed the other symptoms of diabetes (lipids, hypertension, weight gain etc). And what do we mean by “normalize,” depending on the guidelines that is either an A1c < 6.5% or and A1c < 7%. In my little twisted part of the world, this is not normal. So here we have medical professionals using the term reversing diabetes to mean controlling hyperglycemia to mediocre levels without medication. Not normalizing all the symptoms and even the ones that are controlled aren’t normal.
Could we really look ourselves in the mirror and tell ourselves that we have “reversed” our condition when by any measure we still have an abnormal blood sugar, perhaps all the rest of the symptoms and actually still have diabetes there ready to rear it’s ugly head if we stop our diet and exercise treatment.
More here: https://www.diabetesdaily.com/
+5
Sally
sanguine
zand
mo1905
graham64
9 posters
Words Matter: Why You Can’t Reverse Diabetes
graham64- Member
- Status :
Online Offline 
Posts : 3730
Join date : 2014-08-10
Location : Lancs
mo1905- Moderator
- Status :
Online Offline Posts : 2305
Join date : 2014-08-10
Location : Cambs
I think you can certainly reverse the signs/symptoms of T2 diabetes by making dietary and lifestyle changes but I don't believe this is actually a "cure". I think if those who claim to have reversed their diabetes went back to their old ways, most diabetes would follow suit and return.
zand- Member
- Status :
Online Offline 
Posts : 1940
Join date : 2014-08-14
Yes I agree with you. It gets me cross when people give false hopes to others by declaring that their diabetes has been reversed and that they now follow a normal diet. They nearly always forget to say that this 'normal' diet was nothing like their own 'normal' diet pre diagnosis.
Symptom free is good enough for me.
Symptom free is good enough for me.
sanguine- Member
- Status :
Online Offline Posts : 395
Join date : 2014-08-14
Age : 70
Location : Devon UK
Reversal would mean restoration of pancreatic function and/or removing insulin resistance, both to the extent that you could eat virtually anything with no significant impact, i.e. non-diabetic. Not much we can do about the first even if there are some grounds for it with ND, and yes we can improve/contain insulin resistance to keep our BGs under control. That's not reversal though.
I can see a confusion in that some people would say that bringing BGs back down again from a diabetic level is a reversal in the sense that they are reversing the upward trend. And recent threads on DCUK show that there are many HCPs out there who think that well-controlled BGs actually means that you are no longer diabetic - ye Gods.
Anyway, what's a word for 'controlled, consistently showing non-diabetic levels'? No don't say 'smug bastard'. I don't mind 'remission' because it carries the sense that it could return if you stop managing it properly.
I can see a confusion in that some people would say that bringing BGs back down again from a diabetic level is a reversal in the sense that they are reversing the upward trend. And recent threads on DCUK show that there are many HCPs out there who think that well-controlled BGs actually means that you are no longer diabetic - ye Gods.
Anyway, what's a word for 'controlled, consistently showing non-diabetic levels'? No don't say 'smug bastard'. I don't mind 'remission' because it carries the sense that it could return if you stop managing it properly.
Sally- Member
- Status :
Online Offline
Posts : 170
Join date : 2014-08-15
I have a different take on this debate and am happy to use the word “reversed” in the right circumstances and in partnership with some strict understandings.
As I see it ,we all have (or have in the past) eaten large quantities of a substance which the human body was only designed to consume as an incidental. I am of course talking about sugar/starch/carbs. As with many things, some humans cope with adversity better than others. Some will deal, adequately, with carbs, for the full duration of their lifetime, others will begin to falter and a minority will fall early on.
When a person finds that they have blurry vision, are desperately thirsty etc, etc, that is Nature saying that that person can no longer cope with an abnormal-for-humans diet. Continuing with an abnormal-for-humans diet will lead to a progression of health issues, commonly referred to as diabetes. There are only dodgy brakes and there is no reverse gear.
However, if we stop taking the poison, stop eating an abnormal-for-humans diet, we will find the brakes. And gradually the symptoms will go away, nerve damage will repair itself, retinopathy will begin to recover. A happy and joyous life will return. This is what I call reversal, going in the opposite direction, recovery rather than progression.
As a low-carb eater YOU ARE NORMAL. If you remain on a normal-for-humans diet (ie greatly reduced carbs), you should remain in the position achieved by the use of the reverse gear.
If, however, you have stupid health advisors or listen to dangerous twits on other forums and believe that, having achieved an HbA1c of 40, that you have reversed diabetes and can therefore eat the health destroying Eat Well Plate, with an extra helping of treacle tart, you are wrong. This is just starting the dreadful journey all over again, although early progression may be slower due to weight loss.
It’s about realising that conventional normal eating is far from normal. A normal human diet is much lower in carbs and sugars than our modern (diabetes inducing) diet. If we eat truly normally, we can reverse diabetes.
It’s all just words, so not worth getting into an argument about, but I would be interested in hearing what you think.
Sally
As I see it ,we all have (or have in the past) eaten large quantities of a substance which the human body was only designed to consume as an incidental. I am of course talking about sugar/starch/carbs. As with many things, some humans cope with adversity better than others. Some will deal, adequately, with carbs, for the full duration of their lifetime, others will begin to falter and a minority will fall early on.
When a person finds that they have blurry vision, are desperately thirsty etc, etc, that is Nature saying that that person can no longer cope with an abnormal-for-humans diet. Continuing with an abnormal-for-humans diet will lead to a progression of health issues, commonly referred to as diabetes. There are only dodgy brakes and there is no reverse gear.
However, if we stop taking the poison, stop eating an abnormal-for-humans diet, we will find the brakes. And gradually the symptoms will go away, nerve damage will repair itself, retinopathy will begin to recover. A happy and joyous life will return. This is what I call reversal, going in the opposite direction, recovery rather than progression.
As a low-carb eater YOU ARE NORMAL. If you remain on a normal-for-humans diet (ie greatly reduced carbs), you should remain in the position achieved by the use of the reverse gear.
If, however, you have stupid health advisors or listen to dangerous twits on other forums and believe that, having achieved an HbA1c of 40, that you have reversed diabetes and can therefore eat the health destroying Eat Well Plate, with an extra helping of treacle tart, you are wrong. This is just starting the dreadful journey all over again, although early progression may be slower due to weight loss.
It’s about realising that conventional normal eating is far from normal. A normal human diet is much lower in carbs and sugars than our modern (diabetes inducing) diet. If we eat truly normally, we can reverse diabetes.
It’s all just words, so not worth getting into an argument about, but I would be interested in hearing what you think.
Sally
sanguine- Member
- Status :
Online Offline Posts : 395
Join date : 2014-08-14
Age : 70
Location : Devon UK
I think we're saying much the same Sally, we can mitigate (reverse) the symptoms but we will always have the underlying condition so we have to keep the same management regime.
yoly- Member
- Status :
Online Offline
Posts : 650
Join date : 2014-08-14
The worst is the false hope that put diabetics in that desperate search for that quick solution.
Sally- Member
- Status :
Online Offline
Posts : 170
Join date : 2014-08-15
But, Yoly, what about the genuine hope that you can do something about it. When my husband was diagnosed a couple of years ago, it was finding out (not at the doctor's) that this thing could be dealt with, that kept us going, that gave us hope. My husband's first reaction was on the lines of , "oh well, that's my life over", but on line we discovered hope and that hope has been realised, it was not false. The doctor would have had him on insulin by now, but with a simple removal of inappropriate things from his (and our) diet, he's on no meds and looks and acts years younger.
I know it's all a matter of where you stand and how you choose to look at it, but the "no reversal, there's no way out of this hole" approach isn't very encouraging, to my way of thinking.
Sally
I know it's all a matter of where you stand and how you choose to look at it, but the "no reversal, there's no way out of this hole" approach isn't very encouraging, to my way of thinking.
Sally
zand- Member
- Status :
Online Offline Posts : 1940
Join date : 2014-08-14
yoly wrote:The worst is the false hope that put diabetics in that desperate search for that quick solution.
Yes I agree. It happened with me. I won't ever forget how I felt when a Newcastle type diet didn't work for me. All that effort and all I did was mess up my metabolism further so that weight loss was even harder in the future.
I prefer to think of controlling my diabetes rather than reversing it for this reason.
yoly- Member
- Status :
Online Offline
Posts : 650
Join date : 2014-08-14
Sally;
You are confusing what is hope. The point is you need to understand your condition not believe there is some quick easy way out. You are carbohydrate intolerant you need to reduce your carbohydrates to have a healthy life, it can be done without much sacrifice with LCHF that have plenty of alternatives to the high carbs foods. The sooner the diabetic realize that the faster he will be on the road to better health. To think you are going to go back to eat all the high carbs foods by some "fix" is a cruel way to fool yourself. Diabetes is diagnosed by having high blood glucose, just because you read that someone "cured" their diabetes doesn't mean he had really diabetes or that they can eat as before for long. So is just cruel to tell people they just can "cure" their diabetes when the reality is there is not a proven way to do that.
You are confusing what is hope. The point is you need to understand your condition not believe there is some quick easy way out. You are carbohydrate intolerant you need to reduce your carbohydrates to have a healthy life, it can be done without much sacrifice with LCHF that have plenty of alternatives to the high carbs foods. The sooner the diabetic realize that the faster he will be on the road to better health. To think you are going to go back to eat all the high carbs foods by some "fix" is a cruel way to fool yourself. Diabetes is diagnosed by having high blood glucose, just because you read that someone "cured" their diabetes doesn't mean he had really diabetes or that they can eat as before for long. So is just cruel to tell people they just can "cure" their diabetes when the reality is there is not a proven way to do that.
sanguine- Member
- Status :
Online Offline Posts : 395
Join date : 2014-08-14
Age : 70
Location : Devon UK
I thought we were talking about the semantics of 'reversal' not curing.
Sally- Member
- Status :
Online Offline
Posts : 170
Join date : 2014-08-15
I certainly see "cure" as being different from "reversal". There is no way, at present, that a (say) 55 year old, found to have high sugar levels and well known symptoms is going to do anything or be able to be given anything, which will restore ability to handle carbs in the way they did 20 years earlier. To suggest that is wrong. That would be a cure and a cure just isn't there at the moment.
But "reversal" I see as different. That is about travelling in the opposite direction, getting better, not worse. Reaching a stage where you no longer have diabetes hanging over your every waking hour, where people who know you don't regard you as being ill or obviously unhealthy. On these and on other forums' pages, we have seen this countless times. Members of this forum have achieved this through reducing their carb intake. I don't think any of us (many of us?) regard this as an imposition or something to be suffered, that given half a chance and a get out clause we would give it up. It's our normal and we all feel better for it.
Curing is about waving a wand, swallowing a pill. Reversal is about travelling, keeping going in the same direction, not following the sign which says, "pie and chips", but the one which says "eggs and bacon".
I am enjoying this discussion, just hope Zand won't delete me for disagreeing or making dangerous suggestions! (joke, I hope!)
Sally
But "reversal" I see as different. That is about travelling in the opposite direction, getting better, not worse. Reaching a stage where you no longer have diabetes hanging over your every waking hour, where people who know you don't regard you as being ill or obviously unhealthy. On these and on other forums' pages, we have seen this countless times. Members of this forum have achieved this through reducing their carb intake. I don't think any of us (many of us?) regard this as an imposition or something to be suffered, that given half a chance and a get out clause we would give it up. It's our normal and we all feel better for it.
Curing is about waving a wand, swallowing a pill. Reversal is about travelling, keeping going in the same direction, not following the sign which says, "pie and chips", but the one which says "eggs and bacon".
I am enjoying this discussion, just hope Zand won't delete me for disagreeing or making dangerous suggestions! (joke, I hope!)
Sally
sanguine- Member
- Status :
Online Offline Posts : 395
Join date : 2014-08-14
Age : 70
Location : Devon UK
So how about this:
'Reversal' is the journey from a diabetic (or even prediabetic) HbA1c back to a non-diabetic one. So by definition successive HbA1cs should be following an overall downward path (the odd blip could occur).
'Remission' (or just well-controlled/managed) is the state a T2 is in when HbA1cs are consistently below 42.
'Reversal' is the journey from a diabetic (or even prediabetic) HbA1c back to a non-diabetic one. So by definition successive HbA1cs should be following an overall downward path (the odd blip could occur).
'Remission' (or just well-controlled/managed) is the state a T2 is in when HbA1cs are consistently below 42.
Sally- Member
- Status :
Online Offline
Posts : 170
Join date : 2014-08-15
Yes, reversal is the journey. Having "reversed" is the state you are in when you have arrived. Some would say that is consistently below 42, I would put "having arrived" a bit lower than that. I think HanaDR, a very bright lady who used to post elsewhere, said that truly normal is in the high 20's.
I don't like "remission" because there is something distinctly temporary about it. It has a sense of, "you may have a low Hba1c now, but you'll be on insulin in a year or two, this low carbing won't last".
Sally
I don't like "remission" because there is something distinctly temporary about it. It has a sense of, "you may have a low Hba1c now, but you'll be on insulin in a year or two, this low carbing won't last".
Sally
zand- Member
- Status :
Online Offline Posts : 1940
Join date : 2014-08-14
That makes sense Sally.
Thanks for stating the 'truly normal' too. That's something I have often wondered about. I have read a lot of Hana's posts, but obviously not that one.
Thanks for stating the 'truly normal' too. That's something I have often wondered about. I have read a lot of Hana's posts, but obviously not that one.
yoly- Member
- Status :
Online Offline
Posts : 650
Join date : 2014-08-14
The thing is you can't call it "reversal" or "cured" if when you eat a high carb meal your numbers go beyond what a normal person will go. You just have your diabetes controlled or in remission only if you follow your diabetic diet that is the point. Their doing a disservice to diabetics that don't know better saying that diabetes can be "reversed" or "cured" because it make people desperate and think there is a "fix".
sanguine- Member
- Status :
Online Offline Posts : 395
Join date : 2014-08-14
Age : 70
Location : Devon UK
I see your point Sally, but looking at the use of remission in cancer (of which I have no direct experience) it seems like 'partial remission' equates to the 'reversal' we have been talking about, and 'complete remission' to the 'having arrived' state.
In our cases with T2 it is temporary in the sense that people do fall off the wagon from time to time, and return to a state of increasing HbA1c again - we can never go back to 'normal'. We all believe that can't happen to us, but ...
Anyway, I'm struggling for an alternative - any ideas?
In our cases with T2 it is temporary in the sense that people do fall off the wagon from time to time, and return to a state of increasing HbA1c again - we can never go back to 'normal'. We all believe that can't happen to us, but ...
Anyway, I'm struggling for an alternative - any ideas?
zand- Member
- Status :
Online Offline Posts : 1940
Join date : 2014-08-14
I find it doubly upsetting when those people who say they are 'cured' brag about the amount of carbs they can eat now. Very often it's more than I was consuming when I was diagnosed. It makes you wonder just what their diet was like before.
But no, Rod I have no more ideas. I suppose it depends on whether you are a glass half full or half empty type of person?
But no, Rod I have no more ideas. I suppose it depends on whether you are a glass half full or half empty type of person?
sanguine- Member
- Status :
Online Offline Posts : 395
Join date : 2014-08-14
Age : 70
Location : Devon UK
Lol yeah - I'll just carry on what I'm doing, but I'm under no illusions about 'cure'. Still, the food's great and I only rarely miss some of the carbs I used to eat (crusty bread toast usually!).
zand- Member
- Status :
Online Offline Posts : 1940
Join date : 2014-08-14
Now that's something I don't miss anymore. I love Lidl high protein rolls cut in half and toasted and dripping with butter. Yummy.
mo1905- Moderator
- Status :
Online Offline Posts : 2305
Join date : 2014-08-10
Location : Cambs
Nice discussion here people. I think we all probably have our own views and that won't change. I do like the idea of encouraging "hope" for others to help keep T2's focussed and with a clear target but my own opinion is certain people have a faulty gene or are more prone or susceptible to diabetes than others. By maintaining low or "normal" HbA1C's and remaining free of any complications by following a LCHF diet ( or similar ) is, in my view, just controlling or managing the condition.
I liken it a little to an allergy. If I have a peanut allergy and I avoid peanuts, I am not cured or reversed, I'm just managing. As soon as I have a peanut, I'm ill again.
Still, I doubt there are any actual right or wrong answers. Our views are all actually pretty similar, we just don't agree on some of the terminology.
I liken it a little to an allergy. If I have a peanut allergy and I avoid peanuts, I am not cured or reversed, I'm just managing. As soon as I have a peanut, I'm ill again.
Still, I doubt there are any actual right or wrong answers. Our views are all actually pretty similar, we just don't agree on some of the terminology.
Paul1976- Moderator
- Status :
Online Offline Posts : 2439
Join date : 2014-08-12
Age : 48
Location : East midlands,UK
"You say Tomayto-I say Tomahto" 
Most of us are here because we've got busted Endocrine systems to different degrees but hold good BG numbers that are in some instances-Totally Non-Diabetic...Reversed? Remission? Personal choice of description for sure although the one I would choose for myself "Keeping good control through dietary intervention and minimal Insulin therapy" One things for sure though-A couple of days of "Normal" eating and I'm sure I would see numbers on my meter that would top 30 mmol.
Most of us are here because we've got busted Endocrine systems to different degrees but hold good BG numbers that are in some instances-Totally Non-Diabetic...Reversed? Remission? Personal choice of description for sure although the one I would choose for myself "Keeping good control through dietary intervention and minimal Insulin therapy" One things for sure though-A couple of days of "Normal" eating and I'm sure I would see numbers on my meter that would top 30 mmol.
chris c- Member
- Status :
Online Offline
Posts : 4520
Join date : 2015-07-26
Couldn't agree more with all of you - but you're missing the point!
A "well controlled diabetic" is still on the Diabetes Register, ie. a statistic.
A "no longer diabetic" is taken off the register, ie. not a statistic. This is what managers believe to be a success.
Here's a gobsmacking story. A TYPE 1 diabetic who had been in the 5% club for a while failed to get his insulin on his repeat prescription. When he rang in to have it prescribed as a matter of urgency the receptionist told him
"Oh you won't be needing that any more, you're no longer diabetic!"
His doctor when he finally got through to him was incandescent. It seems someone probably at the PCT had trawled through their records deleting all diabetics with A1c below 6.
A "well controlled diabetic" is still on the Diabetes Register, ie. a statistic.
A "no longer diabetic" is taken off the register, ie. not a statistic. This is what managers believe to be a success.
Here's a gobsmacking story. A TYPE 1 diabetic who had been in the 5% club for a while failed to get his insulin on his repeat prescription. When he rang in to have it prescribed as a matter of urgency the receptionist told him
"Oh you won't be needing that any more, you're no longer diabetic!"
His doctor when he finally got through to him was incandescent. It seems someone probably at the PCT had trawled through their records deleting all diabetics with A1c below 6.
Eddie- Member
- Status :
Online Offline Posts : 3807
Join date : 2014-08-13
Age : 74
Location : London
I think everyone is agreed there is no cure for diabetes full stop. The people who annoy me the most are not the get rich quick merchants and snake oil salesman, there will always be con men. The people that wind me up, are the people that hang out on diabetes forums, stating they can eat 250 or 300 grams of carbs per day and hold non diabetic BG numbers on zero meds. In my opinion these people were never diabetics or are liars. Why they are allowed to post so many posts and spread lies for so long is beyond me. Who on this forum on zero meds could hold non diabetic numbers on a high carb diet? no one. I also doubt very much if anyone can hold non diabetic numbers on a high carb diet, whatever the meds including injected insulin.
Regarding what sort of words we use to describe what we have achieved is not important, providing we do not say we are cured. I can see what Sally is saying, look at it this way. I am not trying to parallel type two diabetes with being an alcoholic, but you could say there are some similarities. If an alcoholic stops drinking before permanent damage has occurred, and never drinks again, he can reverse the damage and get on with a normal life. The same for a type two diabetic, dump the poison that was making you ill, and get on with a normal life. We have all seen monumental grief and trouble caused by promoting our chosen lifestyle, but all we have ever said, basically, is drop the junk and eat whole fresh food and get your health back using minimal or nil medication. Only in a world this crazy should that advice have raised even an eyebrow.
Regarding what sort of words we use to describe what we have achieved is not important, providing we do not say we are cured. I can see what Sally is saying, look at it this way. I am not trying to parallel type two diabetes with being an alcoholic, but you could say there are some similarities. If an alcoholic stops drinking before permanent damage has occurred, and never drinks again, he can reverse the damage and get on with a normal life. The same for a type two diabetic, dump the poison that was making you ill, and get on with a normal life. We have all seen monumental grief and trouble caused by promoting our chosen lifestyle, but all we have ever said, basically, is drop the junk and eat whole fresh food and get your health back using minimal or nil medication. Only in a world this crazy should that advice have raised even an eyebrow.
zand- Member
- Status :
Online Offline Posts : 1940
Join date : 2014-08-14
Eddie wrote: Who on this forum on zero meds could hold non diabetic numbers on a high carb diet? no one.
Possibly Jan?
Which sort of proves your other point doesn't it? ..... "The people that wind me up, are the people that hang out on diabetes forums, stating they can eat 250 or 300 grams of carbs per day and hold non diabetic BG numbers on zero meds. In my opinion these people were never diabetics or are liars. Why they are allowed to post so many posts and spread lies for so long is beyond me. "
Similar topics
