Fasting - A History Dr Jason Fung

Paul1976 wrote:Don't you just wish HCP's would finally distinguish between 'Cured' and 'Well controlled' eh Beardie?

The problem is they are 100% convinced it is nothing to do with control. They refuse to accept that is even possible.

beardie wrote:

Paul1976 wrote:Don't you just wish HCP's would finally distinguish between 'Cured' and 'Well controlled' eh Beardie?

The problem is they are 100% convinced it is nothing to do with control. They refuse to accept that is even possible.

It's bullshit isn't it!! My highest HbA1c was 130 (14.1%) and my best was 31 (4.9%) and at 4.9% I'm sure many non enlightened HCP's would say that I am no longer diabetic,sadly I am and if I went back to eating the NHS diet I would be blowing readings over 34 mmol after eating again,low carb gives me non diabetic readings with a small amount of insulin but I'm far from being cured.

Paul1976 wrote:

beardie wrote:

Paul1976 wrote:Don't you just wish HCP's would finally distinguish between 'Cured' and 'Well controlled' eh Beardie?

The problem is they are 100% convinced it is nothing to do with control. They refuse to accept that is even possible.

It's bullshit isn't it!! My highest HbA1c was 130 (14.1%) and my best was 31 (4.9%) and at 4.9% I'm sure many non enlightened HCP's would say that I am no longer diabetic,sadly I am and if I went back to eating the NHS diet I would be blowing readings over 34 mmol after eating again,low carb gives me non diabetic readings with a small amount of insulin but I'm far from being cured.

Annoying this is that if I had taken the meds they offered me at diagnosis they would probably accept I am diabetic even with my results.

beardie wrote:

beardie wrote:

OldTech wrote:My current average for postprandial is 4.7. I have only seen spikes to around 5.5 6 times in the last 3 months. As I said it is amazing constant.

Those results are at least as good as the non diabetics I have tested. I am no doctor and have never had diabetic medication, but I wonder if you need that amount of metformin?

Brilliant results, better than mine and they say I am cured. Did you say what your HbA1 c result is?

Oops just noticed it in your signature. I have never seen one as low as that.

I too wonder if I need the metformin and do plan on tapering off it sometime in the future to see if I still need it. Right now I want to give my body some more time to adjust to the new normal before stressing it.

For me this is all about having normal blood glucose as defined by Dr. Bernstein. He defines normal as an A1c below 4.7 and a blood glucose that is relatively constant. I know that there are studies that show that normal includes spikes up to 140 mg/dl (7.8 mmol/l), but that is for people eating a modern high carb diet of which some 30 to 50% will end up diabetic. So I now think that Dr. Bernstein is right. Normal does not include spikes.

A year ago I though that this goal was impossible. I was eating very low carb (ketogentic) and had gotten my A1c down to 4.7, but I was still spiking to 120 mg/dl and could not seem to keep below 100 mg/dl (5.5 mmol/l). That is when I first started resistant starch. That seemed to help but I still was having difficulties keeping below 100 mg/dl (5.5 mmol/l). Then last September I went to daily fasting of 14-16 hours per day (my two meals with no snacks). That gave me periods where I would stay below 100 (5.5) so I kept it up. Then in January something seemed to switch on and I got my new normal.

OldTech wrote:

beardie wrote:

beardie wrote:

OldTech wrote:My current average for postprandial is 4.7. I have only seen spikes to around 5.5 6 times in the last 3 months. As I said it is amazing constant.

Those results are at least as good as the non diabetics I have tested. I am no doctor and have never had diabetic medication, but I wonder if you need that amount of metformin?

Brilliant results, better than mine and they say I am cured. Did you say what your HbA1 c result is?

Oops just noticed it in your signature. I have never seen one as low as that.

I too wonder if I need the metformin and do plan on tapering off it sometime in the future to see if I still need it. Right now I want to give my body some more time to adjust to the new normal before stressing it.

For me this is all about having normal blood glucose as defined by Dr. Bernstein. He defines normal as an A1c below 4.7 and a blood glucose that is relatively constant. I know that there are studies that show that normal includes spikes up to 140 mg/dl (7.8 mmol/l), but that is for people eating a modern high carb diet of which some 30 to 50% will end up diabetic. So I now think that Dr. Bernstein is right. Normal does not include spikes.

A year ago I though that this goal was impossible. I was eating very low carb (ketogentic) and had gotten my A1c down to 4.7, but I was still spiking to 120 mg/dl and could not seem to keep below 100 mg/dl (5.5 mmol/l). That is when I first started resistant starch. That seemed to help but I still was having difficulties keeping below 100 mg/dl (5.5 mmol/l). Then last September I went to daily fasting of 14-16 hours per day (my two meals with no snacks). That gave me periods where I would stay below 100 (5.5) so I kept it up. Then in January something seemed to switch on and I got my new normal.

Are you feeling generally healthy?

beardie wrote:Are you feeling generally healthy?

Yes. However, I should say that I do have health issues, but for a 70 year old its not that bad. I can still tackle fairly heavy jobs such a bucking up a tree for firewood. BTW: I spent my career at a desk doing statistics and programming.

I'm 5'7'' with a weight of 135 lbs. I had stents inserted in 2007 and prescribed statins (which I now blame along with the low fat diet for my diabetes). My blood pressure is still little high (systolic 130 - 140) which is why I am doing cardio most days. I have to take synthroid because I have no thyroid due to thyroid cancer 60 years ago. I also take calcitriol (active form of vitamin D) because I live in Washington State. To manage my electrolytes I supplement with potassium, magnesium, calcium, and salt. For heart heath I take vitamin K2 and CoQ10. Along with the resistant starch I also take 1 cove of garlic a day.

OldTech wrote:

beardie wrote:Are you feeling generally healthy?

Yes. However, I should say that I do have health issues, but for a 70 year old its not that bad. I can still tackle fairly heavy jobs such a bucking up a tree for firewood. BTW: I spent my career at a desk doing statistics and programming.

I'm 5'7'' with a weight of 135 lbs. I had stents inserted in 2007 and prescribed statins (which I now blame along with the low fat diet for my diabetes). My blood pressure is still little high (systolic 130 - 140) which is why I am doing cardio most days. I have to take synthroid because I have no thyroid due to thyroid cancer 60 years ago. I also take calcitriol (active form of vitamin D) because I live in Washington State. To manage my electrolytes I supplement with potassium, magnesium, calcium, and salt. For heart heath I take vitamin K2 and CoQ10. Along with the resistant starch I also take 1 cove of garlic a day.

Absolutely amazing.

OldTech wrote:

beardie wrote:Are you feeling generally healthy?

Yes. However, I should say that I do have health issues, but for a 70 year old its not that bad. I can still tackle fairly heavy jobs such a bucking up a tree for firewood. BTW: I spent my career at a desk doing statistics and programming.

I'm 5'7'' with a weight of 135 lbs. I had stents inserted in 2007 and prescribed statins (which I now blame along with the low fat diet for my diabetes). My blood pressure is still little high (systolic 130 - 140) which is why I am doing cardio most days. I have to take synthroid because I have no thyroid due to thyroid cancer 60 years ago. I also take calcitriol (active form of vitamin D) because I live in Washington State. To manage my electrolytes I supplement with potassium, magnesium, calcium, and salt. For heart heath I take vitamin K2 and CoQ10. Along with the resistant starch I also take 1 cove of garlic a day.

Wow! I agree with Beardie that is amazing!

What was your A1c when diagnosed?

And another article on the benefits of fasting:

http://news.nationalpost.com/health/therapeutic-fasting-741073

Part of the article says:
"Fasting has been likened to a “reset” button that returns the human body to its (healthy) factory settings. A study published last year by Prof. Longo’s team at USC, drawing on animal and human trials, concluded that three days of fasting can rejuvenate the immune system, triggering the production of new white blood cells. Other studies show that fasting can enable healthy cells to endure better the toxic impact of chemotherapy while cancer cells die more rapidly. It is a fascinating area of research that draws on the body’s evolutionary adaptation."

Your results are absolutely amazing OldTech and have given me even more motivation to continue with my 17 hour per day intermittent fasting experiment. Day 40 today and results haven't been as dramatic as I might have liked, but will keep plugging as I'm still in the slightly overweight category and suspect my personal fat threshold is very low. Onwards and (hopefully) downwards  

Indy51 wrote:Your results are absolutely amazing OldTech and have given me even more motivation to continue with my 17 hour per day intermittent fasting experiment. Day 40 today and results haven't been as dramatic as I might have liked, but will keep plugging as I'm still in the slightly overweight category and suspect my personal fat threshold is very low. Onwards and (hopefully) downwards

Just to be clear I am not sure what was responsible for my new 'normal' since it was not even a proper N=1 trial where you just vary one thing.

I am however starting to think that the major factor is getting normal blood glucose using a ketogenic state. Fasting, intermittent fasting, and LCHF diets are all ways of getting to the ketogenic state. However, there is still a lot that we do not know. For example, is deep ketosis more effective than mild ketosis? If that is true then that might explain why intermittent fasting coupled with LCHF may be more effective since intermittent fasting should deepen the ketosis achieved by LCHF (at least part of the time). It would also explain why fasting has shown results (it is deep ketosis). Note: I do not recommend fasting more than a few days unless it is medically supervised.

Sounds like the jury's maybe out on this one but whatever the reason, you're managing fantastic control @OldTech :-)

Just spotted another recent headline regarding the health benefits of fasting, although this seems more focussed on nocturnal fasting. Read here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11550243/Fasting-at-night-lowers-risk-of-breast-cancer-and-diabetes.html

Until I was about 30, I would pass out if I went more than about 8 hours without food. I am reluctant to fast for too long. Before diagnosis I was eating one meal a day.

Fasting isn't something I could really consider with work & lifestyle either but I guess it suits some.

I don't think fasting did me any good. My body just got used to having no food and then I put on weight when I ate again.

We are all different. That is the thing I have learned more than anything from my research.

The paper "Glucose excursions and glycaemic control during Ramadan fasting in diabetic patients: Insights from continuous glucose monitoring (CGM)" in Diabetes & Metabolism (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S126236361400189X) is interesting. It also suggests that diabetic patients on insulin or insulin producing medication should be careful with intermittent fasting.

Fasting whilst on insulin must be difficult to control well. Basal must be spot on and my guess is the possible benefits would not be worth the hassle. Anyone on insulin tried it ?

mo1905 wrote:Fasting whilst on insulin must be difficult to control well. Basal must be spot on and my guess is the possible benefits would not be worth the hassle. Anyone on insulin tried it ?

Mo or other insulin users here, how often do you do a long fast to set up your basal routine ? and how long do you fast for ?

I only really do a basal test if my levels are not what I expect. I do a daytime test, usually for about 6hrs. I would test every hour.

Next instalment of Dr Fung's series on fasting is up:

https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/fasting-and-growth-hormone-physiology-part-3/

I'm up to day 45 of my intermittent fasting (compressed eating window of 7-8 hours/16-17 hours fasting) experiment and so far so good - the weight loss is a bit disappointing with only 3.5kgs lost so far. However, the BG levels are responding quite well - getting regularly fasting levels in the mid 5's and yesterday got my lowest (that I know of) random level at 4.3. Trying to keep to under 1200 cals (2 meals) a day.

Finding it really suits me and thus is surprisingly easy to keep to thus far.

Would like to lose another 3-5 kgs if possible, but will see how it goes. I guess slow weight loss is to be expected when you're on the very upper edge of normal BMI.

3.5Kgs is a decent weight loss Indy but as you say, there are other benefits too which make it work for you. Please continue to update with your progress and thanks for the link.

Indy51 wrote:Next instalment of Dr Fung's series on fasting is up:

https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/fasting-and-growth-hormone-physiology-part-3/

I'm up to day 45 of my intermittent fasting (compressed eating window of 7-8 hours/16-17 hours fasting) experiment and so far so good - the weight loss is a bit disappointing with only 3.5kgs lost so far. However, the BG levels are responding quite well - getting regularly fasting levels in the mid 5's and yesterday got my lowest (that I know of) random level at 4.3. Trying to keep to under 1200 cals (2 meals) a day.

Finding it really suits me and thus is surprisingly easy to keep to thus far.

Would like to lose another 3-5 kgs if possible, but will see how it goes. I guess slow weight loss is to be expected when you're on the very upper edge of normal BMI.

Thanks for the link Indy ... and well done on your weight loss. It's good to hear this 'regime' suits you.  

All the best Jan

The next instalment in Dr Fung's fasting series - Fasting & Lipolysis:
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/fasting-and-lipolysis-part-4/