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    More Science, Can You Believe It?

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    Wobblycogs
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    Re: More Science, Can You Believe It?

    Post by Wobblycogs on Sun Jun 03 2018, 16:01

    I am tired of 'science' when it comes to diet.

    My way:

    If it is edible, and it can be found in the wild, then it's our natural food. If it has been made, (such as bread, pasta etc. then it isn't our natural food.)
    We don't hunt or gather any more, (generally that is), but we shop for our food. The same rules as above apply, so that's how I decide what I should buy. Dairy is mostly processed too of course, but of that group l I eat only cheese and cream.

    Another 15 pounds gone since the Spring  

    John    thumb-up
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    graham64
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    Re: More Science, Can You Believe It?

    Post by graham64 on Sun Jun 03 2018, 21:36

    @Wobblycogs wrote:I am tired of 'science' when it comes to diet.

    My way:

    If it is edible, and it can be found in the wild, then it's our natural food. If it has been made, (such as bread, pasta etc. then it isn't our natural food.)
    We don't hunt or gather any more, (generally that is), but we shop for our food. The same rules as above apply, so that's how I decide what I should buy. Dairy is mostly processed too of course, but of that group l I eat only cheese and cream.

    Another 15 pounds gone since the Spring  

    John    thumb-up

    Way to go John it''s obviously working for you, but of course there is a downside  Mad the price you will be paying is the cost of all the new clothes  Laughing


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    Proving the LowCarb sceptics wrong for over ten years

    Not all cherubs are Angels  Wink nor all diabetics Bonkers  Rolling Eyes
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    Re: More Science, Can You Believe It?

    Post by chris c on Sun Jun 03 2018, 22:14

    @graham64 wrote:An Integrated Understanding of the Rapid Metabolic Benefits of a Carbohydrate-Restricted Diet on Hepatic Steatosis in Humans

    https://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(18)30054-8

    Bugger, Sci-Hub seems to be down, all the previously working sites (I used sci-hub.hk/ earlier in the day) are now showing DNS not found.

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    Re: More Science, Can You Believe It?

    Post by chris c on Sun Jun 03 2018, 22:18

    @Wobblycogs wrote:I am tired of 'science' when it comes to diet.

    My way:

    If it is edible, and it can be found in the wild, then it's our natural food. If it has been made, (such as bread, pasta etc. then it isn't our natural food.)
    We don't hunt or gather any more, (generally that is), but we shop for our food. The same rules as above apply, so that's how I decide what I should buy. Dairy is mostly processed too of course, but of that group l I eat only cheese and cream.

    Another 15 pounds gone since the Spring  

    John    thumb-up

    Well done that man!

    Can't remember who said it - man is the only species clever enough to manufacture food and stupid enough to eat it.

    OK just a quickie

    Increased Plasma Glucose and Insulin Responses to HighCarbohydrate
    Feedings in Normal Subjects

    http://sci-hub.hk/10.1210/jcem-38-1-151

    (may not be there any more)

    The estimable Gerald Reaven way back in 1974
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    Re: More Science, Can You Believe It?

    Post by Wobblycogs on Sun Jun 03 2018, 22:49

    @graham64 wrote:
    @Wobblycogs wrote:I am tired of 'science' when it comes to diet.

    My way:

    If it is edible, and it can be found in the wild, then it's our natural food. If it has been made, (such as bread, pasta etc. then it isn't our natural food.)
    We don't hunt or gather any more, (generally that is), but we shop for our food. The same rules as above apply, so that's how I decide what I should buy. Dairy is mostly processed too of course, but of that group l I eat only cheese and cream.

    Another 15 pounds gone since the Spring  

    John    thumb-up

    Way to go John it''s obviously working for you, but of course there is a downside  Mad the price you will be paying is the cost of all the new clothes  Laughing


    Don't I know it. Still it's mostly cords and shirts. Cheapest I can find, until I think I'm ready for a new suit!

    My biggest problem is I don't like courgettes, not over-keen on raw tomatoes, can't stand egg-plant and avocado pear. I tend to eat mostly broccoli, cauli, cucumber, and French beans. And granny Smiths! They taste better AFTER the meat course!popcorn



    John thumb-up


    Cheers

    John
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    Re: More Science, Can You Believe It?

    Post by graham64 on Sun Jun 03 2018, 23:09

    @Wobblycogs wrote:
    @graham64 wrote:
    @Wobblycogs wrote:I am tired of 'science' when it comes to diet.

    My way:

    If it is edible, and it can be found in the wild, then it's our natural food. If it has been made, (such as bread, pasta etc. then it isn't our natural food.)
    We don't hunt or gather any more, (generally that is), but we shop for our food. The same rules as above apply, so that's how I decide what I should buy. Dairy is mostly processed too of course, but of that group l I eat only cheese and cream.

    Another 15 pounds gone since the Spring  

    John    thumb-up

    Way to go John it''s obviously working for you, but of course there is a downside  Mad the price you will be paying is the cost of all the new clothes  Laughing


    Don't I know it. Still it's mostly cords and shirts. Cheapest I can find, until I think I'm ready for a new suit!

    My biggest problem is I don't like courgettes, not over-keen on raw tomatoes, can't stand egg-plant and avocado pear. I tend to eat mostly broccoli, cauli, cucumber, and French beans. And granny Smiths! They taste better AFTER the meat course!popcorn



    John thumb-up


    Cheers

    John

    Yes there's always alternatives, admittedly I'm not over keen on eggplants too but I'm ok with the rest  Cool


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    Proving the LowCarb sceptics wrong for over ten years

    Not all cherubs are Angels  Wink nor all diabetics Bonkers  Rolling Eyes
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    Re: More Science, Can You Believe It?

    Post by chris c on Wed Jun 06 2018, 21:17

    OK Sci-Hub is back, here's the full text of Graham's paper

    http://sci-hub.hk/http://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(18)30054-8

    My go-to veggies are multicoloured peppers and chillies, mushrooms garlic and broccoli, then seasonal things like brussels sprouts, purple sprouting, asparagus and runner beans, oh and frozen spinach, and peas on occasion. Oh and samphire which fills the gap between the asparagus and the beans.

    I'm not fond of fresh tomatoes either but I use puree.

    Meanwhile

    A High-Fat Compared with a
    High-Carbohydrate Breakfast Enhances
    24-Hour Fat Oxidation in Older Adults

    http://sci-hub.hk/10.1093/jn/nxx040

    rather gives the lie to this

    https://health.usnews.com/health-news/blogs/eat-run/articles/2017-01-11/why-you-should-always-eat-carbs-at-breakfast

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    Re: More Science, Can You Believe It?

    Post by graham64 on Wed Jun 06 2018, 22:43



    _________________
    I'm a skinny T2 diagnosed 4/4/2008, a high calorie LCHF diet and one metformin a day A1c 6.2 and no complications.

    Proving the LowCarb sceptics wrong for over ten years

    Not all cherubs are Angels  Wink nor all diabetics Bonkers  Rolling Eyes
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    Re: More Science, Can You Believe It?

    Post by graham64 on Sat Jun 16 2018, 22:59

    Dietary and nutritional approaches for prevention and management of type 2 diabetes

    Key messages


    • Considerable evidence supports a common set of dietary approaches for the prevention and management of type 2 diabetes, but uncertainties remain


    • Weight management is a cornerstone of metabolic health but diet quality is also important


    • Low carbohydrate diets as the preferred choice in type 2 diabetes is controversial. Some guidelines maintain that no single ideal percentage distribution of calories from different macronutrients (carbohydrates, fat, or protein) exists, but there are calls to review this in light of emerging evidence on the potential benefits of low carbohydrate diets for weight management and glycaemic control


    • The quality of carbohydrates such as refined versus whole grain sources is important and should not get lost in the debate on quantity


    • Recognition is increasing that the focus of dietary advice should be on foods and healthy eating patterns rather than on nutrients. Evidence supports avoiding processed foods, refined grains, processed red meats, and sugar sweetened drinks and promoting the intake of fibre, vegetables, and yoghurt. Dietary advice should be individually tailored and take into account personal, cultural, and social factors


    • An exciting recent development is the understanding that type 2 diabetes does not have to be a progressive condition but instead there is potential for remission with dietary intervention


    https://www.bmj.com/content/361/bmj.k2234


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    Proving the LowCarb sceptics wrong for over ten years

    Not all cherubs are Angels  Wink nor all diabetics Bonkers  Rolling Eyes

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    Re: More Science, Can You Believe It?

    Post by Long birder on Sun Jun 17 2018, 11:08

    @graham64 wrote:Dietary and nutritional approaches for prevention and management of type 2 diabetes

    Key messages


    • Considerable evidence supports a common set of dietary approaches for the prevention and management of type 2 diabetes, but uncertainties remain


    • Weight management is a cornerstone of metabolic health but diet quality is also important


    • Low carbohydrate diets as the preferred choice in type 2 diabetes is controversial. Some guidelines maintain that no single ideal percentage distribution of calories from different macronutrients (carbohydrates, fat, or protein) exists, but there are calls to review this in light of emerging evidence on the potential benefits of low carbohydrate diets for weight management and glycaemic control


    • The quality of carbohydrates such as refined versus whole grain sources is important and should not get lost in the debate on quantity


    • Recognition is increasing that the focus of dietary advice should be on foods and healthy eating patterns rather than on nutrients. Evidence supports avoiding processed foods, refined grains, processed red meats, and sugar sweetened drinks and promoting the intake of fibre, vegetables, and yoghurt. Dietary advice should be individually tailored and take into account personal, cultural, and social factors


    • An exciting recent development is the understanding that type 2 diabetes does not have to be a progressive condition but instead there is potential for remission with dietary intervention


    https://www.bmj.com/content/361/bmj.k2234

    Thanks Graham,
    Their getting the message but it was guarded in places.

    I accept the point they made about the poor finding a low carb diet expensive because they obviously will have to buy more expensive protein.

    They are also hanging on the LDL hook, but recognise low carb does raise LDL for some but increases HDL and lowers Trigs.
    regards
    Derek
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    Re: More Science, Can You Believe It?

    Post by chris c on Wed Jun 20 2018, 23:25

    It's moving slowly forward.

    Dietary carbohydrates: role of quality and
    quantity in chronic disease

    https://www.bmj.com/content/bmj/361/bmj.k2340.full.pdf

    Strange collection of authors including David Ludwig and Frank Hu

    A Mediterranean-style eating pattern with lean, unprocessed red meat
    has cardiometabolic benefits for adults who are overweight or obese in
    a randomized, crossover, controlled feeding trial

    https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/advance-article/doi/10.1093/ajcn/nqy075/5036105

    fits in with the protein in heart failure but they are still unnecessarily paranoid about fat

    Supra-Additive Effects of Combining Fat and
    Carbohydrate on Food Reward

    https://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(18)30325-5

    ties in with a lot of Ted Naiman's thoughts, the combination of carbs and fat is not normally found in nature so we never evolved to handle it properly
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    Re: More Science, Can You Believe It?

    Post by graham64 on Thu Jun 21 2018, 22:26

    @chris c wrote:ties in with a lot of Ted Naiman's thoughts, the combination of carbs and fat is not normally found in nature so we never evolved to handle it properly

    Yes and this is why in the attempt to demonise fat they do include the combinations

    Saturated fat is found in:

    butter, ghee, suet, lard, coconut oil and palm oil 
    cakes 
    biscuits
    fatty cuts of meat
    sausages 
    bacon
    cured meats like salami, chorizo and pancetta
    cheese
    pastries, like pies, quiches, sausage rolls and croissants
    cream, crème fraîche and sour cream
    ice cream
    coconut milk and cream
    milk shakes
    chocolate and chocolate spreads 

    https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/eat-less-saturated-fat/


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    Proving the LowCarb sceptics wrong for over ten years

    Not all cherubs are Angels  Wink nor all diabetics Bonkers  Rolling Eyes

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    Re: More Science, Can You Believe It?

    Post by Long birder on Fri Jun 22 2018, 11:48

    @graham64 wrote:
    @chris c wrote:ties in with a lot of Ted Naiman's thoughts, the combination of carbs and fat is not normally found in nature so we never evolved to handle it properly

    Yes and this is why in the attempt to demonise fat they do include the combinations

    Saturated fat is found in:

    butter, ghee, suet, lard, coconut oil and palm oil 
    cakes 
    biscuits
    fatty cuts of meat
    sausages 
    bacon
    cured meats like salami, chorizo and pancetta
    cheese
    pastries, like pies, quiches, sausage rolls and croissants
    cream, crème fraîche and sour cream
    ice cream
    coconut milk and cream
    milk shakes
    chocolate and chocolate spreads 

    https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/eat-less-saturated-fat/

    It's a conspiracy they want us all to die of cancer or CVD before we should so they pay less in pensions.
    D.
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    Re: More Science, Can You Believe It?

    Post by chris c on Fri Jun 22 2018, 23:46

    Do NOT look at the carbs behind the curtain.
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    Re: More Science, Can You Believe It?

    Post by chris c on Sat Jun 23 2018, 00:15

    OK a few more

    Ketogenic Diets, Caloric Restriction, and
    Hormones
    L. Amber O'Hearn

    http://jevohealth.com/journal/vol2/iss3/13/

    pdf downloadable

    Is interleukin-6 the link between low
    LDL cholesterol and increased noncardiovascular
    mortality in the elderly?

    http://openheart.bmj.com/content/openhrt/5/1/e000789.full.pdf

    James Di Nicolantonio

    Effects of Adiposity on Plasma Lipid Response to Reductions in Dietary Saturated Fatty Acids and Cholesterol

    https://academic.oup.com/advances/article/2/3/261/4591487

    they look at some interesting links between inflammation and LDL but IMO they still have the causality upside down

    Haven't read these two yet

    Influence of Lifestyle on
    Incident Cardiovascular Disease and
    Mortality in Patients With
    Diabetes Mellitus

    http://sci-hub.tw/10.1016/j.jacc.2018.04.027

    Developing a network view of type 2 diabetes risk pathways through integration of genetic, genomic and functional data

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/06/21/350181

    Both via Jim Johnson's twitter feed so should be worthwhile
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    Re: More Science, Can You Believe It?

    Post by graham64 on Sat Jun 23 2018, 22:56

    Comes with the usual caveat "more research is needed"  Sad

    Low-carbohydrate diets for the treatment of obesity and type 2 diabetes

    Purpose of review Summarize the physiological effects of low-carbohydrate diets as they relate to weight loss, glycemic control, and metabolic health.

    Recent findings Low-carbohydrate diets are at least as effective for weight loss as other diets, but claims about increased energy expenditure and preferential loss of body fat are unsubstantiated. Glycemic control and hyperinsulinemia are improved by low-carbohydrate diets, but insulin sensitivity and glucose-stimulated insulin secretion may be impaired, especially in the absence of weight loss. Fasting lipid parameters are generally improved, but such improvements may depend on the quality of dietary fat and the carbohydrates they replaced. Postprandial hyperlipemia is a potential concern given the high fat content typical of low-carbohydrate diets.

    Summary Low-carbohydrate diets have several potential benefits for treatment of obesity and type 2 diabetes, but more research is required to better understand their long-term consequences as well as the variable effects on the endocrine control of glucose, lipids, and metabolism.

    https://journals.lww.com/co-clinicalnutrition/


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    Re: More Science, Can You Believe It?

    Post by chris c on Sun Jun 24 2018, 20:28

    Oh yes that was the Kevin "I hate Gary Taubes" Hall paper

    http://sci-hub.tw/10.1097/MCO.0000000000000470

    I read that NUSI has imploded partly due to his machinations, yet interestingly he seems less terrified of low carb than previously, which is a major step.

    Taubes himself wrote to the effect that things have moved from low carb being seen as dangerous and instantly lethal to being "not quite as good as low fat" which is really a major step forward.

    The elephant in the room

    https://twitter.com/SatchinPanda/status/997522543564152832

    Meanwhile

    https://twitter.com/CharlieSummers_/status/1007595713201627136

    if they hadn't spent so long banning low carbers, deleting posts and threads, obliterating Jay Wortman and calling David Unwin a troll they could have done this more than a decade ago. I expect it will be more profitable than hampers full of carbs.
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    Re: More Science, Can You Believe It?

    Post by graham64 on Sun Jun 24 2018, 22:44


    @chris c wrote:https://twitter.com/CharlieSummers_/status/1007595713201627136

    if they hadn't spent so long banning low carbers, deleting posts and threads, obliterating Jay Wortman and calling David Unwin a troll they could have done this more than a decade ago. I expect it will be more profitable than hampers full of carbs.

    Yes Panesar is a business man and saw the potential of low carb as a money spinner, the low carb programme is based on stuff freely available from Dr Google

    I suppose the one good thing to come out of this is the demise of the low carb antis  Cool


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    Proving the LowCarb sceptics wrong for over ten years

    Not all cherubs are Angels  Wink nor all diabetics Bonkers  Rolling Eyes
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    Re: More Science, Can You Believe It?

    Post by chris c on Tue Jun 26 2018, 23:16

    I don't look any more, where did they go?

    The dim bulb dieticians are still studiously ignoring reality but there are some now whose attitude seems to be

    "If you have failed on low fat, Mediterranean, DASH and vegan diets perhaps trying low carb isn't so bad"

    It'll probably take another decade or two before it becomes the first line recommendation. Meanwhile not a few other doctors and dieticians are coming on board, this was an interesting observation

    oh damn, I can't find it now but it was a report from the recent conference where the majority of doctors present were low carb, I'll refind it later, but meanwhile

    https://twitter.com/AmandaZZ100/status/1008481036072882176

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    Re: More Science, Can You Believe It?

    Post by graham64 on Sun Jul 01 2018, 22:21

    Dietitian's won't like this  Rolling Eyes

    Markers of cardiovascular risk are not changed by increased whole-grain intake: the WHOLEheart study, a randomised, controlled dietary intervention

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3501710/


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    Proving the LowCarb sceptics wrong for over ten years

    Not all cherubs are Angels  Wink nor all diabetics Bonkers  Rolling Eyes
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    Re: More Science, Can You Believe It?

    Post by chris c on Mon Jul 02 2018, 22:33

    SUSAN JEBB???

    /me falls over backwards

    also I should apologise for calling Nita Forouhi fat, I had her confused with someone else. In fact she's quite cute, I would like to take her out for dinner and introduce her to some Real Food Like What Diabetics Need To Eat.
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    Re: More Science, Can You Believe It?

    Post by graham64 on Tue Jul 03 2018, 22:54

    @chris c wrote:SUSAN JEBB???

    /me falls over backwards

    also I should apologise for calling Nita Forouhi fat, I had her confused with someone else. In fact she's quite cute, I would like to take her out for dinner and introduce her to some Real Food Like What Diabetics Need To Eat.

    Reckon Jebb was expecting a different conclusion  Rolling Eyes

    Meanwhile 

    Randomised trial of coconut oil, olive oil or butter on blood lipids and other cardiovascular risk factors in healthy men and women

    https://www.repository.cam.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/1810/274002/e020167.full.pdf?sequence=6


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    Proving the LowCarb sceptics wrong for over ten years

    Not all cherubs are Angels  Wink nor all diabetics Bonkers  Rolling Eyes
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    Re: More Science, Can You Believe It?

    Post by chris c on Wed Jul 04 2018, 23:15

    Key-Tee Khaw was one of the authors of the EPIC-Norfolk study that showed a linear relationship between HbA1c and CVD starting from truly "normal" levels and increasing.

    Meanwhile the BBC seem to have provided "balance" to the recent Truth About Carbs with a radio programme

    https://twitter.com/LivingLoudUK/status/1013678998629568512
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    Re: More Science, Can You Believe It?

    Post by graham64 on Thu Jul 05 2018, 23:03

    Vitamin D and insulin resistance 

    https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jnsv/64/3/64_173/_pdf

    Diabetes Among Non-Overweight Individuals: an Emerging Public Health Challenge

    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11892-018-1017-1


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    Proving the LowCarb sceptics wrong for over ten years

    Not all cherubs are Angels  Wink nor all diabetics Bonkers  Rolling Eyes
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    Re: More Science, Can You Believe It?

    Post by chris c on Fri Jul 06 2018, 23:41

    The second one

    http://sci-hub.tw/10.1007/s11892-018-1017-1

    (to find full paywalled papers copy the DOI number into Sci-Hub and they will usually appear)

    I reckon I must be keeping my Vitamin D well up in the recent weather, and nitric oxide too, I spent some hours today sitting in the sun at the Hen Reedbeds not seeing many birds but chatting with some interesting people one of whom I'd met before. I've not been doing enough walking but I know the location of every seat and suitable grassy bank for miles . . .

    Yes "we know Healthy Whole Grains must be good for you despite this study not proving it". Strangely I've eaten very few of them for the last thirteen years and I strongly suspect that if I had I wouldn't still be here. They get in the way of eating Real Food.

    The fat paper was interesting, George Henderson made the point that perhaps they ate the butter on bread but the other oils in meals.

    David Ludwig and Cara Ebbeling look at the carbohydrate-insulin theory

    http://sci-hub.tw/10.1001/jamainternmed.2018.2933

    and are rapidly shot down in flames by the Usual Suspects (well that's what they think)

    http://sci-hub.tw/10.1001/jamainternmed.2018.2920


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    Re: More Science, Can You Believe It?

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      Current date/time is Tue Oct 23 2018, 00:29