Kidney Stones

Hi, i went to the hospital today to discuss with a consultant the reason for my stones, this is thought was very useful as it was discussing what caused them, rather than how to deal with them, this brought up 2 relevant to us questions, the first is that diabetics tend to make a certain type of stones (uric acid) where as everyone else tend to make calci something type of stones, we as low carbers i believe would eat more than a normal amount of protein (i know i do anyway) so we as diabetic low carbers must be more likely to make stones, once because we are DB and twice because we eat more protein

i have to go back in a month when all the test results come back to find out which i have, this will effect my diet somewhat as things like spinach and green tea both contain high levels of something that can cause one type or the other, also meat protein is very high, also some berries but luckily she said if you eat the berries with dairy that stops it happening and as i only ever eat berries with yogurt its all good

my missus reckons she read that if you lose a lot of weight quickly, that in itself can cause kidney stones, which if true would make the average type2 even more likely i suppose

just thought id write down my thoughts

can i say as i always slate off the doctors nurses, everyone at epsom hospital is simply marvellous

" we as low carbers i believe would eat more than a normal amount of protein (i know i do anyway)"

For what my opinion is worth, I have said from the start, do not replace carbs with protein, it should be high quality fats. It is thought up to 50% of protein can turn to glucose, hence there is no requirement to eat any carbs, not that I am saying do not eat any carbs. A high protein diet is not good for someone with a kidney problem. From memory have you said you suffer a low kidney GFR in the past? If so maybe you need to reduce protein.

Just a thought.

your opinion is very much worthwhile dude

i don't mean i try to eat protein, no no no, its just for example, if I'm on the road around hungry time and need a snack, where i would have had a sandwich in the past, i might pop into a supermarket and buy some ready cooked chicken for lunch, therefore eating more protein than the sandwich and crisps would have given me before, my diet is very heavily based on meat, my mind boggles at vegetarian low carbing

they are doing hba1c ugghhh and liver blood tests and cholesterol tomorrow so i guess ill find out how the egfr is doing, i did try to avoid the blood tests but she said you may as well have them as they will have a needle in you anyway, and my reasons for avoiding them are hard to explain without looking like a nutcase so here i go

she said no point changing anything until we know what type you make and then its down to you how much of a change you make, i know one thing for sure, id rather have stones in my kidneys than go blind so it won't effect things too much

Was I wrong when I said you previously reported you have a kidney problem?

"A high protein diet is a health concern for those suffering from renal disease. The main concern is that a high protein intake may promote further renal damage that can lead to protein toxicity. The physiological changes induced by an increased protein intake, such as an increased glomerular pressure and hyperfiltration, place further strain on already damaged kidneys"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_toxicity

Hydration is the most important factor in kidney stones, drink plenty of water. Diet only contribute about 10% to 15% of uric acid levels. The PH of your urine plays important role. There are many factors involved in kidney stones formation including genetics but there are things that help reduce them, magnesium, probiotics, IP-6, Omega-3, N-acetyl cysteine. If it caused by uric acid cherry extracts(juice has too many carbs for a diabetic), vitamin C and others help reduce uric acid levels. (Note: Some researchers say vitamin c increase kidney stones others say it reduce them, the same with lithium.) There is a supplement recommended by naturopaths called “Chanca Piedra” (Break Stone) some say it work to break kidney stones but there is no double blinded study of its effectiveness.

no you was right, kind of, i don't have problems as such, my egfr number was at diagnosis 60 and is still 60 now (or at last test) 90 as I'm sure you know is normal and 15 is transplant time, i have questioned what i should be doing about it several times and they have said they don't do anything at 60, 60 is fine, which seems a bit mad to me as when you look at the chart thing 60 is 1 point away from treatment and in stage three kidney disease, i told the doc at a&e one day when i was seeing ketchup with the stones that my kidneys were at stage 3 kidney disease, he did a test then asked me who told me this? i said i read it on the internet and he looked at me like a was a complete nutter so i haven't mentioned it to anyone since lol, but i think the chart was from nice so i wasn't just quoting fat bloke down the pub

eddie1 wrote:Was I wrong when I said you previously reported you have a kidney problem?

"A high protein diet is a health concern for those suffering from renal disease. The main concern is that a high protein intake may promote further renal damage that can lead to protein toxicity. The physiological changes induced by an increased protein intake, such as an increased glomerular pressure and hyperfiltration, place further strain on already damaged kidneys"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_toxicity

Wasn't there a guy called Peppy or something once on a forum who lowered the protein and upped the fats and improved his GFR level big time?

yoly wrote:Hydration is the most important factor in kidney stones, drink plenty of water. Diet only contribute about 10% to 15% of uric acid levels. The PH of your urine plays important role. There are many factors involved in kidney stones formation including genetics but there are things that help reduce them, magnesium, probiotics, IP-6, Omega-3, N-acetyl cysteine. If it caused by uric acid cherry extracts(juice has too many carbs for a diabetic), vitamin C and others help reduce uric acid levels. (Note: Some researchers say  vitamin c increase kidney stones others say it reduce them, the same with lithium.) There is a supplement recommended by naturopaths called “Chanca Piedra” (Break Stone) some say it work to break kidney stones but there is no double blinded study of its effectiveness.

she did emphasis the hydration, i promised to drink a lot more water and cut back on the 15 cups of green tea i drink a day, i probably only drink a litre a day of plain water now, interestingly i first developed the stones whilst doing a 20 mile run in the sun and i was running a lot at the time so definitely getting dehydrated
she said to avoid vitamin c supplements so she must have been on the side of the camp

thank you both

if my egfr is 60 or lower after the test ill have to have a look at my protein i like protein lol

Paul wrote:

eddie1 wrote:Was I wrong when I said you previously reported you have a kidney problem?

"A high protein diet is a health concern for those suffering from renal disease. The main concern is that a high protein intake may promote further renal damage that can lead to protein toxicity. The physiological changes induced by an increased protein intake, such as an increased glomerular pressure and hyperfiltration, place further strain on already damaged kidneys"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_toxicity

Wasn't there a guy called Peppy or something once on a forum who lowered the protein and upped the fats and improved his GFR level big time?

Yes over at the flog a guy called PeppyB was told he did not have long to live. His Dr. was amazed a low carb high fat diet improved his kidney GFR massively. Some old timers may remember he thanked me on the flog for helping him, then they banned me. Thems the breaks

Good luck with the tests Andy. Yoly makes a good point, hydration is very important. I've also heard the possible downside of too much protein as Eddie mentioned. Difficult balancing game eh !

If I'm remembering rightly, I think you need to be careful with Vitamin D supplementation (if you take it) as high levels can be associated with kidney stones as well. Might be worthwhile getting that tested along with the other stuff.

Hi, i went to the consultant dude today, he said my X-ray shows that the stones are exactly the same as six months ago, they are either not growing or I'm making new ones and peeing them out, he said he wasn't at all worried and discharged me, this is all good

I'm still going ahead with all the other tests the other doctor is doing as that is more related to the nutritional side of making stones, to be honest after today i don't think i need them, but as I'm so interested in nutrition as she is doing so many tests, i may find out something interesting

Good new Andy ! Keep peeing them out buddy :-)

Andy12345 wrote:Hi, i went to the consultant dude today, he said my X-ray shows that the stones are exactly the same as six months ago, they are either not growing or I'm making new ones and peeing them out, he said he wasn't at all worried and discharged me, this is all good

I'm still going ahead with all the other tests the other doctor is doing as that is more related to the nutritional side of making stones, to be honest after today i don't think i need them, but as I'm so interested in nutrition as she is doing so many tests, i may find out something interesting

Good news Andy

Take Care .......

All the best Jan

Thank you's