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THE LOW CARB DIABETIC

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    HDL Cholesterol as a Residual Risk Factor for Vascular Events and All-Cause Mortality in Patients With Type 2 Diabetes

    graham64
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    Post by graham64 Sun Jul 03 2016, 22:52

    Abstract

    OBJECTIVE To evaluate whether low HDL cholesterol (HDL-c) levels are a risk factor for cardiovascular disease and mortality in patients with type 2 diabetes and whether it remains a residual risk factor when attaining low LDL cholesterol (LDL-c) treatment goals or when LDL-c is treated with intensive lipid-lowering therapy.

    RESEARCH DESIGN AND METHODS
    We performed a prospective cohort study of 1,829 patients with type 2 diabetes included in the Second Manifestations of ARTerial disease (SMART) cohort. Cox proportional hazard models were used to evaluate the risk of HDL-c on cardiovascular events and all-cause mortality. Analyses were performed in strata of LDL-c levels (<2.0, 2.0–2.5, and >2.5 mmol/L) and lipid-lowering therapy intensity and were adjusted for age, sex, BMI, smoking, alcohol, LDL-c, triglycerides, systolic blood pressure, estimated glomerular filtration rate, glucose, and HbA1c.

    RESULTS
    A total of 335 new cardiovascular events and 385 deaths occurred during a median follow-up of 7.0 years (interquartile range 3.9–10.4). No relation was found between plasma HDL-c and cardiovascular events (hazard ratio


    0.97, 95% CI 0.93–1.01) or all-cause mortality (HR 0.99, 95% CI 0.96–1.03). Subgroup analysis supported effect modification by plasma LDL-c levels. In patients with LDL-c levels <2.0 mmol/L, higher HDL-c was related to higher risk for all-cause mortality (HR 1.14, 95% CI 1.07–1.21). Higher HDL-c was also related to higher risk for cardiovascular events in patients with LDL-c levels <2.0 mmol/L (HR 1.10, 95% CI 1.07–1.21) in contrast to patients with LDL-c levels between 2.0 and 2.5 mmol/L (HR 0.85, 95% CI 0.75–0.95) and >2.5 mmol/L (HR 0.96, 95% CI 0.91–1.00).

    CONCLUSIONS
    In high-risk patients with type 2 diabetes with LDL-c levels <2.0 mmol/L, higher HDL-c at baseline is unexpectedly related to a higher risk for cardiovascular events and all-cause mortality in contrast to high-risk patients with type 2 diabetes with LDL-c levels between 2.0 and 2.5 mmol/L.

    http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/early/2016/05/14/dc16-0155

    Lest we not forget the the cholesterol guidelines for diabetics include an LDL target of <2.0 mmol/L
    Derek
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    Post by Derek Mon Jul 04 2016, 13:37

    Hi Graham,
    What do you make of this report, please?    http://dx.doi.org/10.2337/dc15-2450 It was done on T1D's
    Derek
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    Post by Derek Mon Jul 04 2016, 14:41

    Hi,
    You may be interested in a conclusion of Malcolm Kendrick in section 12 of his paper on what causes CVD.
    Quote
    So, ahem yes, blood borne lipoproteins do have a role to play in CVD. The role is not key, but it is there. I thought I should get that off my chest. End of quote.

    But one should read the whole paper.
    Derek


    Last edited by Derek on Mon Jul 04 2016, 19:00; edited 3 times in total
    Eddie
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    Post by Eddie Mon Jul 04 2016, 16:31

    Derek wrote:Hi,
    You may be interested in a conclusion of Malcolm Kendick in section 12 of his paper on what causes CVD.

    So, ahem yes, blood borne lipoproteins do have a role to play in CVD. The role is not key, but it is there. I thought I should get that off my chest.   But one should real the whole paper.
    Derek

    "I thought I should get that off my chest." Great idea, I hope you feel better now. Now, what is your point? Very Happy
    Derek
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    Post by Derek Mon Jul 04 2016, 17:04

    Sorry I should have shown the quote.
    He seems to be back peddling on Cholesterol!
    Eddie
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    Post by Eddie Mon Jul 04 2016, 17:38

    Derek wrote:Sorry I should have shown the quote.
    He seems to be back peddling on Cholesterol!

    I presume you are talking of Dr. Malcolm Kendrick. I like the man, always have enjoyed reading his work. That being said, I started reading his what causes heart disease mega series, and gave up some time ago, on the premise I don't know whether I will live long enough, before he gets to a conclusion. The bottom line he does not know what causes heart disease, and nor does anyone else. Obviously there are risk factors, such as smoking, excessive alcohol consumption, morbid obesity, genetics, diabetes etc etc.

    One thing is for sure, so much of life is down to luck or fate, call it what you like. It seems to me once confirmed as a diabetic, the biggest factor for us re. CVD is the good control of our BG numbers, and of course, how we get those BG numbers down to safe levels. As the ACCORD study proved, ramming down high BG with drugs is not the way to go. The same goes for cholesterol numbers. As always, it's the low carb diet that wins every time, and zero down sides.
    Derek
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    Post by Derek Mon Jul 04 2016, 18:55

    The very ancient pathologist Dr. Kraft claimed,and he would know cos he took people apart. That hyperinsulineamia causes most CVD.
    D.
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    Post by Eddie Mon Jul 04 2016, 21:10

    Derek wrote:The very ancient pathologist Dr. Kraft claimed,and he would know cos he took people apart.  That hyperinsulineamia causes most CVD.
    D.

    Kraft is an extremely bright man and years ahead of his time. If anyone knows, it's him. He is certainly on the right track. So many diabetics think insulin is a get out of jail free card. The best controlled T1's I know realise it is not. Insulin is like oxygen and water, we die without it, but too much etc etc. We have to control our BG numbers, but the lower the insulin levels to achieve, the better. Insulin is often referred to by biochemists as the fat building hormone, which saves us in times of famine. Insulin is also the ageing hormone. Too much and we age faster than what we would like. Hence the life expectancy reduction for so many diabetics.
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    Post by graham64 Mon Jul 04 2016, 21:37

    Thomas Dayspring aka Dr Lipid

    HDL Cholesterol as a Residual Risk Factor for Vascular Events and All-Cause Mortality in Patients With Type 2 Diabetes Capture%2BDr%2BLipid

    200 mg/dl  = 5.172 mmol/l
    Eddie
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    Post by Eddie Mon Jul 04 2016, 21:42

    graham64 wrote:Thomas Dayspring aka Dr Lipid

    HDL Cholesterol as a Residual Risk Factor for Vascular Events and All-Cause Mortality in Patients With Type 2 Diabetes Capture%2BDr%2BLipid

    200 mg/dl  = 5.172 mmol/l

    Which is why a well controlled T1 can avoid all the grief that comes with being a T2, i.e. no insulin resistance. Unless they shovel the insulin down them and become what is known as a double diabetic.
    chris c
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    Post by chris c Mon Jul 04 2016, 21:53

    I reckon the original study did it wrong! There's a huge amount of other work linking low HDL - and high trigs, which come as a matched pair - with CVD risk.

    The trigs/HDL ratio is a marker for insulin resistance - which is where Joseph Kraft and Gerald Reaven come in - and is also a marker for small dense LDL, which is where the "cholesterol" comes in - these are basically broken particles which miss the LDL receptors and hang around in the blood becoming glycated (which is where the high BG comes in) and oxidised. They may or may not be causal of anything but sure as hell they indicate things that are.

    I've been re-reading cardiologist William Davis blog. He uses carb restriction including wheat elimination, vitamin D3, niacin and other things (his techniques have evolved over the years, I'm currently halfway through 2010) and aims for HDL, LDL, trigs and vitamin d of 60 - 60 - 60 - 60 in US numbers, which he arrived at pragmatically by using calcium scans are finding out what reduced the plaque.

    Using drugs to raise HDL was a spectacular failure, far worse than using statins to lower LDL, which suggests to me that changing metabolism rather than treating numbers is the way to go. I suspect this paper mainly shows that diabetes "treatment" doesn't work too well if the ADA are behind it.
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    Post by Eddie Mon Jul 04 2016, 21:58

    Chris said "I suspect this paper mainly shows that diabetes "treatment" doesn't work too well if the ADA are behind it."

    Exactly my thoughts on that paper. The ADA push a diet of slow death for diabetics. Our diet reduces trigs big time and ups HDL usually. LDL measurements are completely meaningless in the UK, due to non measurement of particle sizes.
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    Post by chris c Mon Jul 04 2016, 22:09

    Yup, I DOUBLED my HDL and reduced trigs to 1/10 of what they were. Interestingly I discovered the labs my doctor used to use actually measured LDL - it came out roughly halfway between the Friedwald and Iranian calculations (the former is only accurate with high trigs, the latter with high total "cholesterol"). I know plenty of people who have higher HDL than LDL. This simply doesn't occur with high carb diets.

    You can get an indicator of particle size from the trigs/HDL ratio but this is less accurate for some people. And of course Graham and many other people can no longer get trigs measured.
    Derek
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    Post by Derek Mon Jul 04 2016, 22:22

    I think some have to use total cholesterol as a proxy for a full lipid panel I know I will have to modify my fat intake away from dairy to get my ldl down. Derek
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    Post by graham64 Mon Jul 04 2016, 22:27

    Derek wrote:Hi Graham,
    What do you make of this report, please?    http://dx.doi.org/10.2337/dc15-2450  It was done on T1D's
    Derek

    Hi Derek, it's an observational study it really needs an RTC to draw any conclusions, looking at references provided  most of them have conflicts of interest with drug companies, The "Cholesterol Treatment Trialists" are referenced three times see Zoe Harcombes take on them http://www.zoeharcombe.com/2014/08/ctsu-funding-from-drug-companies/

    But maybe noblehead should heed this study he is always quoting the guidelines for T2 diabetics cholesterol as a T1 he should lead by example and take statins himself as he fits the criteria of the study Rolling Eyes
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    Post by chris c Mon Jul 04 2016, 22:47

    Strange, my LDL initially went up on low carb, then came down again when I added more saturated fats. This sometimes happens during weight loss - I had 15kg to lose thanks to that damn dietician.

    Even more strange, and shows the interraction of the endocrine system, while I was hypERthyroid my LDL dropped exactly as much as a statin caused, then went up again as I went HypOthyroid - it was overtreated.
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    Post by graham64 Mon Jul 04 2016, 23:02

    chris c wrote:Strange, my LDL initially went up on low carb, then came down again when I added more saturated fats. This sometimes happens during weight loss - I had 15kg to lose thanks to that damn dietician.

    Even more strange, and shows the interraction of the endocrine system, while I was hypERthyroid my LDL dropped exactly as much as a statin caused, then went up again as I went HypOthyroid - it was overtreated.

    I found my LDL hardly changed when I switched from the standard NHS/DUK low fat diet to LCHF apart from negligible deviations +/- . The biggest difference was a big increase in HDL often by as much as 1 mmol/L
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    Post by Derek Tue Jul 05 2016, 11:44

    It is nearly as bad as big oil setting their experts up to rubbish climate change!
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    Post by chris c Thu Jul 07 2016, 20:00

    Yes I concentrate on the QUALITY of my LDL rather than the quantity.

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