What diet do you want god to give you?

Ali, You have reminded me why I believed in the first place. I have lapsed now, I left Church (over 10 years ago) because of the hypocrisy. I found myself saying to Andy yesterday that I didn't think it was reasonable to accept the Bible as the truth. That shocked me and I felt empty. So today I'm not sure what I feel about it all. I think that you and I always had slightly different beliefs (from something you said yesterday) So I don't think we will end up agreeing on this subject either.

But that's exactly my point Zand. True Christianity should never be hypocritical. If it is, then it isn't true Christianity.

Jesus condemned it then, and he still condemns it now.

Interestingly, that portion of scripture is Jesus speaking to his disciples. If you read through it he is saying it's not enough to do what everyone else is doing, a Christian needs to go over and beyond. Go the extra mile.

That's interesting. They would have understood what he meant. Back in those times a Roman soldier could enforce a citizen to carry his bags for a mile. As you can imagine, it was a very unpopular statute. The poor bloke would have to drop whatever he was doing and be dragged off to be his gofer. But what Jesus was saying is, if you were conscripted to carry the bags for a mile, then you would be prepared to keep on going and carry them for another mile.

Hypocrisy is the difference between doing it cheerfully or doing it begrudgingly.

There is also a big difference between reading Jesus's teachings - and applying them..... :0)

Yes I can't argue with any of that either. I think where you and I may disagree is on the spirit and spiritual gifts.

would you accept the possibility that none of this is true, in the same way i would accept the possibility that im wrong and there is a god? if for example i saw a miracle i would have to believe, when you see anti miracles ie. suffering, is there a circumstance where the suffering was so bad you could be convinced there is no god? or is all the bad stuff put down to man? if for example an earthquake kills millions something man couldnt be blamed for, would that be part of gods plan or the work of evil or what man deserves? i mean do you think anything could make you accept that your mistaken?

Andy12345 wrote:would you accept the possibility that none of this is true, in the same way i would accept the possibility that im wrong and there is a god? if for example i saw a miracle i would have to believe, when you see anti miracles ie. suffering, is there a circumstance where the suffering was so bad you could be convinced there is no god? or is all the bad stuff put down to man? if for example an earthquake kills millions something man couldnt be blamed for, would that be part of gods plan or the work of evil or what man deserves? i mean do you think anything could make you accept that your mistaken?

I assume this question is mostly for Ali since her faith is obviously stronger than mine ever was. I suspect if you saw a miracle you would say that it was just coincidence. What sort of thing would constitute a miracle in your eyes? An adult having prayer for the effects of concussion and having 3D vision restored (when they had had none since age 4)? Someone praying for a child to grow a centimetre overnight so they could go on one of the over 140cm height restricted rides at Alton Towers? Someone praying for a key to fit in the lock and unlock a door and then finding out a day later it was actually the wrong key.....and it never unlocked that door again? Someone having a shoulder pain healed overnight and then an osteopath being confused because there were signs that there should be a shoulder injury but there was no injury? Or do you want raising of the dead type miracles? The thing about miracles is you get what you're given. It's not a 'shopping list' to ask for what you want.

As to your last question - yes I'm questioning all of it and I'm not sure what will be left when I've finished. So Ali's answer will be far more interesting than mine.

yes it was towards Ali but not at all, your answer makes my question a stupid one

Andy12345 wrote:yes it was towards Ali but not at all, your answer makes my question a stupid one

Huh? Why?

why? because your right, you could say human beings themselves and everything around us is a miracle, its a miracle we are here at all, its a miracle i found a wife....lmao

Or, you could just say it's evolution ! I'm still not convinced but am keeping an open mind.

LOL.

Andy, personally I am 100% convinced and am determined to stick.

The reason being that if it was just a few things that had turned my head towards God, I might be easily swayed, but there are so many things that make this so real to me that in 38 years I have never doubted my faith.

When people come to understand what the Bible really teaches, they can understand why it all makes so much sense.  As I was learning, it was answering not only questions I had been asking, but heaps I hadn't even thought of.

There is just awesome design in everything on this planet - and off it, from things like the Golden Angle, through fractals, to the construction of the cell.  The power in one atom is awesome.  The Bible says God is full of dynamic energy.  You can see that in that one miniscule object.  When you go down into the realms of nanobiology it's breathtaking, and science has barely touched the surface.

When you look at the stars, and planets, and the amazing structure and order within the solar system, and the 'jewel' of our planet within it how can it just have happened?  How did the earth end up in exactly the right place and right angle to sustain life?  That the sun is just the right distance from the earth for us not to be frozen solid or frazzled to bits.  That there is just the right amount of gravity to stop us falling off, or being stuck in one place.  That one molecule of hydrogen joined to two of oxygen - both highly flammable in isolation gives us this awesome supporter of life that is found in abundance on the planet (not always in all places at the moment, but that will be put right).  Need I go on?

Jesus gave two paramount principles, to love God, and our fellow humans.  When we do both, correctly, it just all falls into place like a jigsaw puzzle.  To know God, is to love him.

zand wrote:Yes I can't argue with any of that either.  I think where you and I may disagree is on the spirit and spiritual gifts.

In what way?

1 Corinthians 12: 4-11 OK maybe I made a wrong assumption about you when you said there was no hell. I assumed you wouldn't accept that these gifts were real and for us today.

Back in the apostle Paul's day they were very real, they had been given these gifts by God's power, but interestingly, Acts 8:8-14 shows how it was only the apostles that had been given this power. When they died, those gifts would have died with them.

Many think that 'tongues' in the Bible refers to some undecipheral speech, yet Acts 2 clearly shows, in verse 6 - 11 that the gift of the spirit had actually given them the ability to speak in proper languages. That was just a temporary arrangement just to enable the disciples to speak to the hundreds or even thousands of foreign visitors to the city at that time. 'Tongues' was very likely the word in common use back then for 'language' as in 'which tongue do you speak?'.

So you don't believe there are people with apostolic giftings and prophetic ministries today? All that was finished in biblical times?

Whilst there are events and happenings that might suggest otherwise, I don't believe that personally.

I would kind of have to go through the whole Bible to explain why, and there isn't enough room for that....

Going back to the hypocrisy thing, I have noticed that sometimes people seem to put far more faith in their priest or vicar than they do in God. The problem with that is 1) we shouldn't be worshipping humans, and 2) humans can let you down.

A friend of mine used to attend the church opposite her house. What killed going there for her was when they opened it as a polling station. As if the coffee mornings and the free cake and biscuits, and bingo and free ice cream wasn't enough, despite Jesus's admonishment for Christians not to be 'part of this World' politically, the priest, like many others saw nothing wrong in offering the church for a political event.

The priest there is very charismatic and has a lot of 'followers', but she could see right through him. He still tries to entice her with 'freebies', but all he ends up doing with that is creating 'rice Christians'. I wonder how many would turn up if he turned the 'community centre' off and started to actually teach from the Bible?

I think people have been put off by religion because of the massive amount of negative publicity. The church is rife with greed, corruption, paedophiles etc. Churches are closing faster than pubs these days. In 50 years or less Islam will be the number one religion in virtually every country in the world including the UK.

The thing is Eddie, if you want to hide a tree, the most obvious place to put it is in a forest.

The Truth is in there, but God's Adversary has surrounded it with so much confusing doctrine, credo, tenet, pomp and hypocrisy, that unless people are prepared to put forth effort to find it, it gets lumped in with everything else.

There was a huge difference between what Jesus taught and what religious leaders - those who were supposed to be God's representatives, inculcated. Nothing's changed.

Just for the sake of discussion Ali who is right ? the Christians, the Jews, the Muslims, the Buddhists. the Sikhs and other religions ? They all claim God belongs to them or is there more than one God.

This is a typical human response. You know, in a war where each side is claiming 'ownership' of God. The Army Chaplains 'blessing' the troops (in essence condoning their intention to commit murder), saying 'God is on our side'.

God doesn't 'belong' to anyone.

The Bible clearly shows God isn't partial, or partisan.

Acts 10:35 states 'God is not partial, but in every nation the man who fears him, and does righteousness is acceptable to Him'.

That's not fear fear, but means when you love God, you would have a reverential fear of displeasing Him, just as you would not want to hurt or upset a fleshly father you love dearly. The doing of righteousness, isn't about just doing good, it's about knowing what God's requirements are, and acting in harmony with them.

So many people follow a religion because it a) suits them, b) is the one their family has always followed, c) fits their ethical view on life, etc. They are trying to make God fit around them. But when does anyone stop and ask, what does God require of ME? What can I give Him?

Sadly, whichever god they think they are serving, their actions and conduct would suggest it isn't the one who really matters...... :0(

may i ask Ali, when you say "thats not fear fear" how do you know, are you interpreting what your reading? if so how can you?

That's a very good point Andy and one I believe is the cause of so many problems. People often interpret their own holy readings or scriptures to suit. A particular psalm will mean different things to different people. Some take things literally, some look for hidden meanings whilst others believe they are only a guide.

Many people's idea of fear of God, is the preacher standing in the pulpit shouting 'if you sin you'll go straight to hell'!

God is love.  He has no desire to punish people.  He's not a sadist.  He asks people to do what is right, he doesn't force them, or rain fire and brimstone down on them if they don't.  But he is understandably disappointed if they don't, just like a good human father would be.

A father who beats his children, fills them with fear.  A father who loves his children fills them with fear of disappointing him.  It's not rocket science. :0)

When you really get to know God, you get to understand that he loves us.  We are his children, the pinnacle of his creation.  He created everything for us.  He spent, not 6 days, but thousands of years perfecting this earth for our habitation.  If all humans on earth abided by the two principles of love for God their creator, and love for their fellow human, can you picture the kind of world we could be living in?  We've done the 'me first' kind of world, and it doesn't work.

But between Satan and religion, over the years God has been portrayed as hateful and vengeful, someone to be feared rather than loved and respected.

He doesn't want subsequious fawning worship, he just wants humans to do things the way he asks.  The point is, everything he asks us to do or not do is actually for our benefit.

I sort of agree Ali but this is still just your interpretation of fear and how you think it should mean. You said yourself, "many peoples idea of fear is a preacher shouting from the pulpit". That's the problem, obviously not for you, but for the likes of me.

so what your saying is..... all other religions but yours is wrong? or mistaken in their beliefs? would they not say the same? would they not say they had got to know god and he thinks______ ? how does one determine which is right? and if you choose badly does that mean your still going upwards because you tried? are the IS wrong in what they do because they do it in the name of their god? just because we disagree, i don't know my history but I'm pretty sure christians did similar things in the crusades, africa/ india, watching the film ghandi upset me greatly, did they not do what they did in the name or their religion? as we now believe what they did was wrong, would they have gone to hell or at least not got into heaven because what they did was wrong to our modern eyes? is having faith purely a personal thing, in which case if your route is the right path, what happens to all the folks that for example believe god is to be feared? catholics seem to believe this, they also seem to believe that they can do whatever they like as long as they ask for forgiveness, which brings up another point, if a pedophile was to say sorry to god and ask for forgiveness and really mean it, would he go to heaven whilst the good living nice person that didn't believe be left to outside the pearly gates? sorry for all the questions I'm very curious on what you think

also loving your neighbour when they carry an a k47 is not easy at times, what happens if we defend ourselves and break the golden rule? at what degree can we break it? can we attack someone who is likely to attack us? can we attack someone who is amassing an army that will over run us should they be left alone for another year? loving thy neighbour is i agree a wonderful thing, unless your neighbour happens to be a mass murderer, how do you deal with bad neighbours?