BG rise/fall questions

When does your body get most affected by your high sugar It is a question l got to thinking about. Not easy to explain my ramblings to make sense but here goes a load of questions....

If l have something and it spikes me fast and then goes down fast
is it better than
A long slooooww crawl up to a high point that fades slowly away.

If we pass the 2 hr time and then start to rise ... say a slow release food is that ok as it was down for the 2hr and slowly rises then dips down would there be a time it should dip under say to normal at 30 or 40 mins or whatever.

When we eat food we will go high to some degree at least within the first hour but so long as going down and at low point by if possible 1st hour but defiantly by 2nd hour will that cause a problem.

What would the maximum be you would feel happy going up to the first hour bearing in mind we do not usually test at that point and assume we will go high so ong as it is down within an hour.

And which of those would do you think mess up the hba1c or is that another red herring (l have a sneaking idea hba1c is a red herring)

This is the question I keep asking doctors and on forums. I always get the same under 7 after 2 hours.
When I had my GTT I was 4.something after 2 hours 20 minutes (nurse was running late) When I tested after one hour it was about 18. The chances of it peaking just as I tested are tiny. It probably went over 20 at some point.

My guess is that the short and dirty spike is probably better than the long drawn out one. The inventor of the "carb nite" regime refers to eating low GI as "bathing your cells in insulin for hours". His method of shedding weight (mostly for weight lifters and other metabolically health people, not diabetics) is by provoking a high insulin spike strategically in the context of a training regime.

I would also guess that the long drawn out highs would impact A1c more because of the greater opportunity for glycation.

Still, the overall recommendation is that the fewer spikes diabetics have the better - so avoiding them at all cost is probably the smartest move.

My guess would be similar Indy, but why do we have to guess?

beardie wrote:My guess would be similar Indy, but why do we have to guess?

Because I can't be bothered looking up references to make definitive statements? Maybe I don't want to be accused of being dogmatic?

Ok sorry to have bothered you. I have looked for an answer for over a year and cant find one.

beardie wrote:Ok sorry to have bothered you. I have looked for an answer for over a year and cant find one.

I find it really hard to know when you are being serious or not. I didn't realise you were actually wanting references.

Check out John Keifer and "carb nite".

Also the article on safe levels and organ damage on the Blood Sugar 101 site:
http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/14045678.php

But like anything else in science, no doubt someone could come up with scientific references that refute everything these people have to say. It all gets damned confusing

Indy, that seems to be a two hour thing again.
And by the way I am usually serious my life is a risk.

beardie wrote:Indy, that seems to be a two hour thing again.

Where Jenny says "Nerve Damage Occurs when Blood Sugars Rise Over 140 mg/dl (7.8 mmol/L) After Meals", that seems pretty definitive. Timing doesn't seem to have much to do with it.
It's why my personal target is to stay under 7.8 as much as I can. Of course, I trip up from time to time.

The bit that really spooks me is: "Beta Cells Die Off in People Whose Fasting Blood Sugar is Over 110 mg/dl (6.1 mmol/L)"

My fasting BG is almost always above that level and very little I do seems to change it

Sorry but my question is "  what should my BG never go above at any time before after or during a meal?"
I can't find an answer for that anywhere.

beardie wrote:Sorry but my question is "  what should my BG never go above at any time before after or during a meal?"

My answer, based on Jenny Ruhl's work, is 7.8. Stay below that at all times to have the best chance of avoiding complications.

Indy, the 7.8 is a figure after 2 hours is it not?

beardie wrote:Indy, the 7.8 is a figure after 2 hours is it not?

No, I take it as at all times. Any time spent above 7.8 has the possibility of causing damage.

Quoting again from Jenny Ruhl:

"Research conducted with human patients, mice, and pancreas beta cell cultures all point to a single threshold at which elevated blood sugars cause permanent damage to your body. What is that level?

140 mg/dl (7.8 mmol/L) after meals"

http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/14045621.php

Ok so the fact that I can hit 20 is not normal?

beardie wrote:Ok so the fact that I can hit 20 is not normal?

Absolutely not normal.

Though the fact that HCP's are telling you fairy tales about a level that high doesn't surprise me in the least. The garbage they peddle to people is downright criminal.

If you haven't already read Jenny Ruhl, I'd highly recommend her work.

This is what I have been saying to doctors for the last year

Beardie, many doctors will advise maintaining BG levels higher than "normal" because they see the biggest risk for diabetics being hypo's. Not true. The 7.8 mentioned by Indy is a good reference, still a little high but at least an achievable target. As for whether it's better to have a quick very high spike or a longer drawn out lower spike, the answer is the quicker one. The danger to our cells/nerves is the amount of time we run our BG levels high. A quick huge spike isn't good but if you are back in "normal range" quicker, it's less damaging.

mo1905 wrote:Beardie, many doctors will advise maintaining BG levels higher than "normal" because they see the biggest risk for diabetics being hypo's. Not true. The 7.8 mentioned by Indy is a good reference, still a little high but at least an achievable target. As for whether it's better to have a quick very high spike or a longer drawn out lower spike, the answer is the quicker one. The danger to our cells/nerves is the amount of time we run our BG levels high. A quick huge spike isn't good but if you are back in "normal range" quicker, it's less damaging.

The 7.8 is after 2 hours is in not?
I am trying to find a figure above which a non diabetic will not go at any time after eating any meal.
The doctors and nurses seem to think it is irrelevant as my HbA1c is low and I am usually below 7 after 2 hours.

beardie wrote:

mo1905 wrote:Beardie, many doctors will advise maintaining BG levels higher than "normal" because they see the biggest risk for diabetics being hypo's. Not true. The 7.8 mentioned by Indy is a good reference, still a little high but at least an achievable target. As for whether it's better to have a quick very high spike or a longer drawn out lower spike, the answer is the quicker one. The danger to our cells/nerves is the amount of time we run our BG levels high. A quick huge spike isn't good but if you are back in "normal range" quicker, it's less damaging.

The 7.8 is after 2 hours is in not?
I am trying to find a figure above which a non diabetic will not go at any time after eating any meal.
The doctors and nurses seem to think it is irrelevant as my HbA1c is low and I am usually below 7 after 2 hours.

Well,I tested my wife @1 hour after devouring a whole big packet of Wine gums and she was only 7.2! Her body took care of the junk like it was supposed to.

Beardie wrote, "I am trying to find a figure above which a non diabetic will not go at any time after eating any meal."

Jenny Ruhl writes,
You can find this article here, [url=http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/16422495.php]

Perhaps if Paul's wife had tested again, say 20 minutes later, the evidence of her wine gum excess may have have fallen away, in a manner not usually achievable by a diabetic.  
What anyone's blood sugar will be at, say, 10 minutes or half an hour after eating, will depend entirely on what they have eaten, the sky's the limit, but a non-diabetic will have a very rapid response to the release of the sugar and will be back down very quickly, with a very short high period.  
I suspect that it is the ability to deal with a peak, quickly and efficiently, which defines normal, rather than how high you go.

Sally

Sally wrote:Beardie wrote, "I am trying to find a figure above which a non diabetic will not go at any time after eating any meal."

Jenny Ruhl writes,

"Post-Meal Blood Sugar (Postprandial)

Independent of what they eat, the blood sugar of a truly normal person is:

Under 120 mg/dl (6.6 mmol/L) one or two hours after a meal.

Most normal people are under 100 mg/dl (5.5 mmol/L) two hours after eating."

You can find this article here, [url=http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/16422495.php]

Perhaps if Paul's wife had tested again, say 20 minutes later, the evidence of her wine gum excess may have have fallen away, in a manner not usually achievable by a diabetic.  
What anyone's blood sugar will be at, say, 10 minutes or half an hour after eating, will depend entirely on what they have eaten, the sky's the limit, but a non-diabetic will have a very rapid response to the release of the sugar and will be back down very quickly, with a very short high period.  
I suspect that it is the ability to deal with a peak, quickly and efficiently, which defines normal, rather than how high you go.

Sally

Not familiar with her. what is her qualification?

Beardie asked, "what is her qualification".

You can read about Jenny Ruhl here, http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/bio.php

I don't know if she has any formal qualifications, i.e. letters after her name, but, I think, if you read her site, you will soon appreciate that she is an intelligent, well informed and analytical thinker and commentator on the subject of diabetes. Her site certainly turned round my husband's health and gave us the well informed guidance that we needed on his diagnosis. Thanks to Jenny and low carb advice, he went from crazy post meal blood sugars to "truly normal" by Jenny's definition and, very quickly, joined the 5% club, which you can read about on her site.
Sally

beardie wrote:

Sally wrote:Beardie wrote, "I am trying to find a figure above which a non diabetic will not go at any time after eating any meal."

Jenny Ruhl writes,

"Post-Meal Blood Sugar (Postprandial)

Independent of what they eat, the blood sugar of a truly normal person is:

Under 120 mg/dl (6.6 mmol/L) one or two hours after a meal.

Most normal people are under 100 mg/dl (5.5 mmol/L) two hours after eating."

You can find this article here, [url=http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/16422495.php]

Perhaps if Paul's wife had tested again, say 20 minutes later, the evidence of her wine gum excess may have have fallen away, in a manner not usually achievable by a diabetic.  
What anyone's blood sugar will be at, say, 10 minutes or half an hour after eating, will depend entirely on what they have eaten, the sky's the limit, but a non-diabetic will have a very rapid response to the release of the sugar and will be back down very quickly, with a very short high period.  
I suspect that it is the ability to deal with a peak, quickly and efficiently, which defines normal, rather than how high you go.

Sally

Not familiar with  her. what is her qualification?

Beardie are you pulling our chains?

Check out the link to Jenny's site above. I don't know what Jenny's qualifications are, but I do know she is one of the most knowledgeable people on the internet. She is a long time diabetic with excellent control. I reckon she has infinitely more knowledge that the average medic re. diabetes and you should get over to her blog and spend some time there. Her blog contains all you will probably need to know.