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    the most nutrient dense foods for different goals

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    martykendall
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    the most nutrient dense foods for different goals

    Post by martykendall on Mon Sep 14 2015, 09:07

    While a lot of attention is often given to macro nutrient balance, quantifying the vitamin and mineral sufficiency of our diet is typically done by guesswork.

    This article lists the foods that are highest in amino acids, vitamins, minerals or omega 3 refined to suit people with different goals (e.g. diabetes management, weight loss, therapeutic ketosis or a metabolically healthy athlete).

    [see https://optimisingnutrition.wordpress.com/2015/09/14/the-most-nutrient-dense-foods-for-different-goals/ ]
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    chris c
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    Re: the most nutrient dense foods for different goals

    Post by chris c on Mon Sep 14 2015, 19:45

    Useful stuff! I already eat quite a lot of them, so will have a look at the others.

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    Re: the most nutrient dense foods for different goals

    Post by martykendall on Mon Sep 14 2015, 19:47

    Thanks Chris. I thought it would be interesting to highlight how the concept of nutrient density and the food insulin index could come together. Hope you find it help in practice.
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    Re: the most nutrient dense foods for different goals

    Post by chris c on Mon Sep 14 2015, 19:58

    I learned from experts! Mainly one expert, now long dead. Quentin posted a lot on the newsgroup alt.support.diabetes and was a mine of information. He wrote a book, Nutrition For Blokes. In the end he had leukemia and one if not two other forms of cancer, but managed to outlive his doctors' predictions by a few years. You may find some of his stuff archived in Google Groups.

    ps/ you missed out oregano, my all time favourite herb! I presume similar to marjoram, and maybe also basil?
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    Re: the most nutrient dense foods for different goals

    Post by Eddie on Mon Sep 14 2015, 20:00

    I like you Marty, nothing I admire more than a Man or Woman with passion. I'll forgo the fact you never answered my straight  questions re. the insulin index with a straight answer. But tell me this, will you be commenting or assisting in any other threads other than posting links to your own blog and agenda.


    _________________
    Type two diabetic-low carb diet (50 carbs per day) and two 500mg Metformin pills per day. Apart from diagnosis HbA1c almost 12-all HbA1c results none diabetic. For over eight years my diabetes medication has not changed. My weight has remained stable, I have suffered no ill effects from my diet whatsoever. Every blood test has proved, I took the right road to my diabetic salvation. For almost seven years, I have asked medical professionals and naysayers, how do I maintain non diabetic BG levels on two Metformin other than low carb ? The silence has been deafening !

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    Re: the most nutrient dense foods for different goals

    Post by martykendall on Mon Sep 14 2015, 21:40

    @chris c wrote:I learned from experts! Mainly one expert, now long dead. Quentin posted a lot on the newsgroup alt.support.diabetes and was a mine of information. He wrote a book, Nutrition For Blokes. In the end he had leukemia and one if not two other forms of cancer, but managed to outlive his doctors' predictions by a few years. You may find some of his stuff archived in Google Groups.

    ps/ you missed out oregano, my all time favourite herb! I presume similar to marjoram, and maybe also basil?

    Thanks Chris. I'll check Quentein and his book. Always more to learn.

    Oregano does will on the longer lists but just doesn't make it into the top 5 on based on the analysis.

    I'm hoping people will find the longer lists useful to help them find a wide variety of foods they enjoy and will suit their goals.

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    Re: the most nutrient dense foods for different goals

    Post by martykendall on Mon Sep 14 2015, 21:48

    @Eddie wrote:I'll forgo the fact you never answered my straight  questions re. the insulin index with a straight answer.

    But tell me this, will you be commenting or assisting in any other threads other than posting links to your own blog and agenda.

    I did my best to answer answer your questions directly and thoroughly.  I really did.  That's all I've got.  

    I tend to live on Facebook rather than forums.  I am pretty heavily involved there and learn a lot from that interaction and have made a lot of friends.  I am still getting into forums and Twitter with my limited time with a day job and all to support my blogging habit.  

    I came over here when I think Indy51 shared one of my posts and I saw a bunch of traffic from it to the blog.  

    I like sharing my learnings and getting feedback on them.  Usually the discussion is beneficial and everyone walks about with a deeper understanding.  

    I have posted a couple of my articles recently partly in an effort to demonstrate the application of the concepts that I have been playing with in response to your questions.
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    Re: the most nutrient dense foods for different goals

    Post by Eddie on Mon Sep 14 2015, 22:08

    @martykendall wrote:
    @Eddie wrote:I'll forgo the fact you never answered my straight  questions re. the insulin index with a straight answer.

    But tell me this, will you be commenting or assisting in any other threads other than posting links to your own blog and agenda.

    I did my best to answer answer your questions directly and thoroughly.  I really did.  That's all I've got.  

    I tend to live on Facebook rather than forums.  I am pretty heavily involved there and learn a lot from that interaction and have made a lot of friends.  I am still getting into forums and Twitter with my limited time with a day job and all to support my blogging habit.  

    I came over here when I think Indy51 shared one of my posts and I saw a bunch of traffic from it to the blog.  

    I like sharing my learnings and getting feedback on them.  Usually the discussion is beneficial and everyone walks about with a deeper understanding.  

    I have posted a couple of my articles recently partly in an effort to demonstrate the application of the concepts that I have been playing with in response to your questions.

    You never came close to attempting to answer my questions here  http://lowcarbdiabetic.forumotion.co.uk/t1204p80-diabetes-102#17891 and you know it. The insulin index is a complete crock and you either know it, and you are a fraud and a con artist or you have no idea what control of diabetes is all about. Now, you can waffle away here forever, it makes no difference to me, but what gets my dander up, is you are adding to the misinformation, the misinformation that has sent millions of diabetics to an early grave.


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    Type two diabetic-low carb diet (50 carbs per day) and two 500mg Metformin pills per day. Apart from diagnosis HbA1c almost 12-all HbA1c results none diabetic. For over eight years my diabetes medication has not changed. My weight has remained stable, I have suffered no ill effects from my diet whatsoever. Every blood test has proved, I took the right road to my diabetic salvation. For almost seven years, I have asked medical professionals and naysayers, how do I maintain non diabetic BG levels on two Metformin other than low carb ? The silence has been deafening !

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    Re: the most nutrient dense foods for different goals

    Post by martykendall on Mon Sep 14 2015, 22:18

    [quote="Eddie"][quote="martykendall"]
    @Eddie wrote:The insulin index is a complete crock and you either know it, and you are a fraud and a con artist or you have no idea what control of diabetes is all about. Now, you can waffle away here forever, it makes no difference to me, but what gets my dander up, is you are adding to the misinformation, the misinformation that has sent millions of diabetics to an early grave.

    Wow! We've really come a long way from "I have had a very quick look at your blog and am extremely impressed." http://lowcarbdiabetic.forumotion.co.uk/t1204-diabetes-102

    Sad.
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    Re: the most nutrient dense foods for different goals

    Post by Eddie on Mon Sep 14 2015, 22:22

    Answer my questions Marty, that's all you have to do, and if I am wrong, I will offer my profuse apology and say I am 100% wrong. Go for it, prove me wrong, but please, no waffle.


    _________________
    Type two diabetic-low carb diet (50 carbs per day) and two 500mg Metformin pills per day. Apart from diagnosis HbA1c almost 12-all HbA1c results none diabetic. For over eight years my diabetes medication has not changed. My weight has remained stable, I have suffered no ill effects from my diet whatsoever. Every blood test has proved, I took the right road to my diabetic salvation. For almost seven years, I have asked medical professionals and naysayers, how do I maintain non diabetic BG levels on two Metformin other than low carb ? The silence has been deafening !

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    Re: the most nutrient dense foods for different goals

    Post by martykendall on Mon Sep 14 2015, 22:27

    @Eddie wrote:Answer my questions Marty, that's all you have to do, and if I am wrong, I will offer my profuse apology and say I am 100% wrong. Go for it, prove me wrong, but please, no waffle.

    Did you see my 'elevator pitch'? (see http://lowcarbdiabetic.forumotion.co.uk/t1204p60-diabetes-102) I don't think you responded to that.

    I'm not great at being concise. That was my best attempt.
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    Re: the most nutrient dense foods for different goals

    Post by Eddie on Mon Sep 14 2015, 22:40

    More waffle Marty. The insulin index says plain fish (did the fish include 1 lb of potato chips?) will raise insulin levels higher than the equivalent weight in pasta, total and utter bullshit for almost all diabetics. Also cereals such as All Brain better for keeping insulin levels lower than beef (was the beef inside two door step thick slices of white bread?), not in a million years. Check out the yoghurt numbers more BS unless the yoghurt was loaded to the gills with sugar. It does not stack up mate, just the same as the low GI index was pure fantasy.

    Talk to diabetics that live with the condition twenty four seven, pasta and all cereals are a no no for good safe control of blood glucose numbers. No one on this forum other than you would say otherwise.


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    Type two diabetic-low carb diet (50 carbs per day) and two 500mg Metformin pills per day. Apart from diagnosis HbA1c almost 12-all HbA1c results none diabetic. For over eight years my diabetes medication has not changed. My weight has remained stable, I have suffered no ill effects from my diet whatsoever. Every blood test has proved, I took the right road to my diabetic salvation. For almost seven years, I have asked medical professionals and naysayers, how do I maintain non diabetic BG levels on two Metformin other than low carb ? The silence has been deafening !

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    Re: the most nutrient dense foods for different goals

    Post by martykendall on Mon Sep 14 2015, 22:50

    I'm definitely not recommending pasta or cereal for diabetics.

    While protein doesn't raise blood sugar as quickly as carbohydrate it still requires insulin (the hormone that diabetics have a problem of some sort with). Diabetes is not just about blood glucose, it's also about insulin. Yeah?

    It's well established, but not well known that protein is insulinogenic (i.e. requires insulin). See https://optimisingnutrition.wordpress.com/2015/07/06/insulin-index-v2/. I have to trust the University of Sydney on their blood testing data but I do see a lot of type 1s struggling to calculate their insulin requirement for protein, so it seems to make sense in practice.

    The implications are not earth shattering. They just support he general recommendation to eat a low carb, moderate to high protein diet. See https://optimisingnutrition.wordpress.com/2015/06/04/the-goldilocks-glucose-zone/




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    Re: the most nutrient dense foods for different goals

    Post by Eddie on Mon Sep 14 2015, 22:57

    More links to your blog Marty. Marty you are an Engineer, you must know about datum lines etc. Get them wrong and the whole deal is doomed. The insulin index datum line was wrong from the start, therefore the whole thing is a non entity. Build a house on bad foundations and it will never be a good house.


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    Type two diabetic-low carb diet (50 carbs per day) and two 500mg Metformin pills per day. Apart from diagnosis HbA1c almost 12-all HbA1c results none diabetic. For over eight years my diabetes medication has not changed. My weight has remained stable, I have suffered no ill effects from my diet whatsoever. Every blood test has proved, I took the right road to my diabetic salvation. For almost seven years, I have asked medical professionals and naysayers, how do I maintain non diabetic BG levels on two Metformin other than low carb ? The silence has been deafening !

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    Re: the most nutrient dense foods for different goals

    Post by martykendall on Mon Sep 14 2015, 23:05

    @Eddie wrote:Marty you are an Engineer, you must know about datum lines etc. Get them wrong and whole deal is doomed. The insulin index datum line was wrong from the start, therefore the whole thing is a non entity. Build a house on bad foundations and it will never be a good house.

    I think insulin (either deficiency or resistance) is fundamental to diabetes management and the wider issues of metabolic heath and obesity that are plaguing the modern world.

    I think the insulin index data helps us understand how to manipulate the master hormone. I think it is the ultimate point of reference, that's why I feel compelled to share it.

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    Re: the most nutrient dense foods for different goals

    Post by martykendall on Mon Sep 14 2015, 23:07

    For what it's worth I don't think the GI or GL concepts are incorrect, just of minimal benefit because they don't get to the root cause, which I think is insulin.




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    Re: the most nutrient dense foods for different goals

    Post by martykendall on Mon Sep 14 2015, 23:16

    The FII data also shows us that our blood sugar response isn't directly proportional to the insulin required.

    The FII data helps us to better manage and calculate insulin requirements, whether dosing for a type 1 or selecting foods for a type 2.

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    Re: the most nutrient dense foods for different goals

    Post by Eddie on Mon Sep 14 2015, 23:21

    @martykendall wrote:
    @Eddie wrote:Marty you are an Engineer, you must know about datum lines etc. Get them wrong and whole deal is doomed. The insulin index datum line was wrong from the start, therefore the whole thing is a non entity. Build a house on bad foundations and it will never be a good house.

    I think insulin (either deficiency or resistance) is fundamental to diabetes management and the wider issues of metabolic heath and obesity that are plaguing the modern world.  

    I think the insulin index data helps us understand how to manipulate the master hormone.  I think it is the ultimate point of reference, that's why I feel compelled to share it.  

    "I think insulin (either deficiency or resistance) is fundamental to diabetes management and the wider issues of metabolic heath and obesity that are plaguing the modern world."

    I agree 100%. But believing pasta and cereals will help a diabetic control BG numbers better is lunacy.

    "I think the insulin index data helps us understand how to manipulate the master hormone.  I think it is the ultimate point of reference, that's why I feel compelled to share it."

    And how exactly does the majority of diabetics manipulate the master hormone?  (94% type two's) and most type ones do that, other than what we low carbers have preached for years, i.e. low carb high fat. This ain't rocket science, it's plan old common sense. You can play the rocket scientist all you like, but yet again, you fail to address my questions re. the insulin index. 19 years on and it would appear only you can see the merits. A good angle I must admit, but I am not into angles, I am into what works, and everyone one this forum and countless others elsewhere agrees. Including a ever growing list of medical professionals.It's low carb high fat and minimal meds including insulin.


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    Type two diabetic-low carb diet (50 carbs per day) and two 500mg Metformin pills per day. Apart from diagnosis HbA1c almost 12-all HbA1c results none diabetic. For over eight years my diabetes medication has not changed. My weight has remained stable, I have suffered no ill effects from my diet whatsoever. Every blood test has proved, I took the right road to my diabetic salvation. For almost seven years, I have asked medical professionals and naysayers, how do I maintain non diabetic BG levels on two Metformin other than low carb ? The silence has been deafening !
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    Re: the most nutrient dense foods for different goals

    Post by Eddie on Mon Sep 14 2015, 23:28

    Marty, do you know what I reckon, some time ago you stopped seeing the wood for the trees. You have put in a great deal of work, and you site is great. But dump this insulin index obsession, it's a blind ally, but you are on the right track with most of your work.


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    Type two diabetic-low carb diet (50 carbs per day) and two 500mg Metformin pills per day. Apart from diagnosis HbA1c almost 12-all HbA1c results none diabetic. For over eight years my diabetes medication has not changed. My weight has remained stable, I have suffered no ill effects from my diet whatsoever. Every blood test has proved, I took the right road to my diabetic salvation. For almost seven years, I have asked medical professionals and naysayers, how do I maintain non diabetic BG levels on two Metformin other than low carb ? The silence has been deafening !

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    Re: the most nutrient dense foods for different goals

    Post by martykendall on Mon Sep 14 2015, 23:32

    [quote="Eddie"][quote="martykendall"]
    @Eddie wrote:19 years on and it would appear only you can see the merits. A good angle I must admit, but I am not into angles, I am into what works, and everyone one this forum and countless others elsewhere agrees. Including a ever growing list of medical professionals. It's low carb high fat and minimal meds including insulin.

    While I'd like to think that idea that have merit spread like wild fire, there are lots of good ideas that don't take off. It seems that things that have the potential to produce a patent that can make money tend to get promoted a bit harder.

    Personally I don't think the likes of Harvard (Wolpert is loosely involved in the FII research) and the Uni of Sydney have promoted the LCHF supporting implications of the FII data is either they have missed them or they don't want to turn the system they have built on its head.

    I'm someone who likes to systematise things. I like to know what optimal is and try to spend my time on doing that if possible. My hope is that the FII analysis will help people make slightly better food choices in a more informed way and get better results using a low carb high fat minimal meds approach.

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    Re: the most nutrient dense foods for different goals

    Post by Eddie on Mon Sep 14 2015, 23:46

    Marty, I did not want to get personal. On your blog you talk about your beautiful Wife, a type one diabetic. She is controlling her diabetes well with a lot of love and help from you. From all you say, this turnaround in control has been brought about by a low carb diet. I put it to you, if you had never heard of the insulin index, and your Wife had followed the low carb lifestyle, she would still be in the position she is now.

    In your opinion and experience, can your wife eat bowls of pasta and cereals, and require less injected insulin after eating the equivalent in calories and weight in fish or beef? If so, she is very unique.


    _________________
    Type two diabetic-low carb diet (50 carbs per day) and two 500mg Metformin pills per day. Apart from diagnosis HbA1c almost 12-all HbA1c results none diabetic. For over eight years my diabetes medication has not changed. My weight has remained stable, I have suffered no ill effects from my diet whatsoever. Every blood test has proved, I took the right road to my diabetic salvation. For almost seven years, I have asked medical professionals and naysayers, how do I maintain non diabetic BG levels on two Metformin other than low carb ? The silence has been deafening !

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    Re: the most nutrient dense foods for different goals

    Post by martykendall on Tue Sep 15 2015, 00:00

    I think the real learning from the FII data is the trends rather than the individual foods. Pasta and cereal don't feature anywhere in these lists of diabetic friendly foods. Perhaps the pasta and All Bran have a low insulin response because those individual foods are high in fibre?

    https://optimisingnutrition.wordpress.com/2015/03/23/most-ketogenic-diet-foods/

    https://optimisingnutrition.wordpress.com/2015/04/06/optimal-foods-for-blood-sugar-regulation-and-nutritoinal-ketosis/

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    Re: the most nutrient dense foods for different goals

    Post by Eddie on Tue Sep 15 2015, 00:10

    Marty, yet again you completely avoid the direct questions ad infinitum.. All Bran takes my BG numbers through the roof as does Pasta. Talking to other diabetics, the same applies. If you want to maintain credibility, sooner or later you must answer direct questions. Constant evasiveness will not cut the mustard here or anywhere else.

    If you had true belief and knowledge of your chosen subject, you would have no problem in answering straight forward questions.


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    Type two diabetic-low carb diet (50 carbs per day) and two 500mg Metformin pills per day. Apart from diagnosis HbA1c almost 12-all HbA1c results none diabetic. For over eight years my diabetes medication has not changed. My weight has remained stable, I have suffered no ill effects from my diet whatsoever. Every blood test has proved, I took the right road to my diabetic salvation. For almost seven years, I have asked medical professionals and naysayers, how do I maintain non diabetic BG levels on two Metformin other than low carb ? The silence has been deafening !

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    Re: the most nutrient dense foods for different goals

    Post by martykendall on Tue Sep 15 2015, 00:26

    No. We don't eat pasta or All Bran.
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    Re: the most nutrient dense foods for different goals

    Post by Eddie on Tue Sep 15 2015, 00:36

    @martykendall wrote:No.  We don't eat pasta or All Bran.  

    According to the insulin index Pasta and Al Bran requires less insulin to control BG than fish or beef, calorie for calorie, weight for weight. What say you?

    Yes or no, you only have to say one word. Yes or no. No big deal. Go for it!



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    Type two diabetic-low carb diet (50 carbs per day) and two 500mg Metformin pills per day. Apart from diagnosis HbA1c almost 12-all HbA1c results none diabetic. For over eight years my diabetes medication has not changed. My weight has remained stable, I have suffered no ill effects from my diet whatsoever. Every blood test has proved, I took the right road to my diabetic salvation. For almost seven years, I have asked medical professionals and naysayers, how do I maintain non diabetic BG levels on two Metformin other than low carb ? The silence has been deafening !

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