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    Dr. Phinney’s concerns about fasting

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    yoly
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    Dr. Phinney’s concerns about fasting

    Post by yoly on Sat Feb 04 2017, 19:08

    – Labels fasting as a “fad” saying it will produce major pushback from the health authorities when people start dying suddenly
    – Getting adequate fluid, potassium, and sodium with an intermittent fast up to 24 hours is benign
    – After 24 hours of no calorie intake, the body starts breaking down protein from lean tissue
    – By Day 3 of fasting, the rate of lean tissue loss is equivalent to 3/4 pound per day
    – The data on extended fasting in THE COMPLETE GUIDE TO FASTING is misstated
    – If someone fasts for three days a week, the amount of lean tissue lost is greater than the amount of lean tissue they can regain in the other four days
    – Doesn’t believe that my 10-pound lean tissue loss (according to DXA) during my 28 of 31 day fast in January 2016 was water, claims it would take 40 days of eating again to recover this loss (actually a follow-up DXA two weeks later showed all of that 10-pound “lean tissue” loss was back on my body again—so he’s mistaken)
    – When someone fasts for a prolonged period of time, you’re vulnerable to “refeeding syndrome” (WWII prison camp prisoners suddenly died when they were fed copious amounts of food following extended fasting)
    – There’s an acute shift in minerals out of the bloodstream into the cells causing an impairment of heart function
    – The Liquid Protein Diet is used as an example of sudden death from refeeding syndrome that was reported as happening because of ketones…it shut down the science on ketosis for two decades
    – For some people, a 36-hour fast is fine as long as the other 5 1/2 days of eating have adequate minerals (apparent contradiction of his earlier statement)
    – We need research that shows long-term, positive, sustainability for people who are fasting to reverse diabetes and reduce body fat that goes 1-2 years
    – With two-week fasting or longer, the rate of protein breakdown comes down markedly. First day of fasting produces very little protein breakdown, the rate of protein breakdown peaks on the third day of fasting, by two weeks the lean tissue loss is about one-third pound lean tissue loss daily and at 28 days it’s a quarter-pound a day of lean tissue loss (another contradiction of earlier statements)
    – If you only look at urea, then the lean tissue loss seems to be much less but ammonia, creatinine, and other byproducts all make up the lean tissue loss as well so urea doesn’t give the entire picture.
    – It’s unethical to write a book telling people to start fasting on their own (and yet we mention to consult with a physician often throughout our book)
    – I’m not saying fasting is wrong, but we don’t know what the truth is
    – Getting adequate potassium and magnesium is critically important and you’re not getting these when you are fasting

    It start at 49:00 taking about Jimmy Moore & Dr. Fung new book:

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    Derek
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    Re: Dr. Phinney’s concerns about fasting

    Post by Derek on Sun Feb 05 2017, 16:48

    Hi Yoly,
    I ran into trouble criticising Phinney on the other side.
    I think the maxim, "Chose your guru wisely!" applies in this area.

    I found Phinney long winded, like many of those across the pond he takes a long time to get to the point.
    But he did too much book waving for me.

    Kendrick keeps coming out with new ideas, ditches his old ones? and changes his emphasis.

    I test it all with sceptiscism.
    The advice that's given has to fits ones own individual health situation.

    If it works for you the science doesn't matter.Smile

    However, to take on potassium and sodium at the same seems to me is like putting ones foot on the accelarator and brake at the same time, when one goes into tissue the other comes out and is peed out!
    regards
    Derek


    @yoly wrote:– Labels fasting as a “fad” saying it will produce major pushback from the health authorities when people start dying suddenly
    – Getting adequate fluid, potassium, and sodium with an intermittent fast up to 24 hours is benign
    – After 24 hours of no calorie intake, the body starts breaking down protein from lean tissue
    – By Day 3 of fasting, the rate of lean tissue loss is equivalent to 3/4 pound per day
    – The data on extended fasting in THE COMPLETE GUIDE TO FASTING is misstated
    – If someone fasts for three days a week, the amount of lean tissue lost is greater than the amount of lean tissue they can regain in the other four days
    – Doesn’t believe that my 10-pound lean tissue loss (according to DXA) during my 28 of 31 day fast in January 2016 was water, claims it would take 40 days of eating again to recover this loss (actually a follow-up DXA two weeks later showed all of that 10-pound “lean tissue” loss was back on my body again—so he’s mistaken)
    – When someone fasts for a prolonged period of time, you’re vulnerable to “refeeding syndrome” (WWII prison camp prisoners suddenly died when they were fed copious amounts of food following extended fasting)
    – There’s an acute shift in minerals out of the bloodstream into the cells causing an impairment of heart function
    – The Liquid Protein Diet is used as an example of sudden death from refeeding syndrome that was reported as happening because of ketones…it shut down the science on ketosis for two decades
    – For some people, a 36-hour fast is fine as long as the other 5 1/2 days of eating have adequate minerals (apparent contradiction of his earlier statement)
    – We need research that shows long-term, positive, sustainability for people who are fasting to reverse diabetes and reduce body fat that goes 1-2 years
    – With two-week fasting or longer, the rate of protein breakdown comes down markedly. First day of fasting produces very little protein breakdown, the rate of protein breakdown peaks on the third day of fasting, by two weeks the lean tissue loss is about one-third pound lean tissue loss daily and at 28 days it’s a quarter-pound a day of lean tissue loss (another contradiction of earlier statements)
    – If you only look at urea, then the lean tissue loss seems to be much less but ammonia, creatinine, and other byproducts all make up the lean tissue loss as well so urea doesn’t give the entire picture.
    – It’s unethical to write a book telling people to start fasting on their own (and yet we mention to consult with a physician often throughout our book)
    – I’m not saying fasting is wrong, but we don’t know what the truth is
    – Getting adequate potassium and magnesium is critically important and you’re not getting these when you are fasting

    It start at 49:00 taking about Jimmy Moore & Dr. Fung new book:

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    Re: Dr. Phinney’s concerns about fasting

    Post by chris c on Sun Feb 05 2017, 22:45

    I treat these people as suggesting what might help, then I use things like how I feel, my glucometer, the smell of ketones etc. to select what works for me.

    Obviously my hunger is working properly again without the confusion of the carb cravings I suffered most of my life, today I barely made it five hours from breakfast to dinner. Probably because I've been walking in the cold and burning more energy. Other days I might go 11 hours. I don't deliberately fast, I just wait until I'm hungry to eat, whenever that might be. Even my thyroid has settled down again, though that may not last.

    "If it works for you the science doesn't matter.Smile" YES!
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    yoly
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    Re: Dr. Phinney’s concerns about fasting

    Post by yoly on Mon Feb 06 2017, 18:51

    What I dislike is fasting being presented as a panacea and a “cure” for diabetics. That the longer you fast the better and the poor advice they give to diabetics not to worry about blood glucose. Long fast are not for everyone, not the healthy and much less for people with health condition. They should be made aware to be extra careful.

    I see diabetics posting that their blood glucose keep rising no matter how long they fast. There is no warning about the dangers of high blood glucose while fasting. Most of these diabetics are past being insulin resistant and have problems with their insulin production. Diabetes is not all just about insulin resistance, just losing weight and fasting is not going to fix everyone diabetes.
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    Re: Dr. Phinney’s concerns about fasting

    Post by chris c on Thu Feb 09 2017, 21:44

    Yes too much "one note" dogma replacing a different one note dogma. Same for the Newcastle Diet which took off on the DCUK forum and elsewhere, it's another potential tool, but when all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail.

    See also "safe starches". Probably only safe if your pancreas functions above a certain level.

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