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    All T2's end up on insulin eventually?????

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    Sally
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    All T2's end up on insulin eventually?????

    Post by Sally on Wed Sep 17 2014, 10:02

    Yesterday, elsewhere on this big interwebby thing*, there was a discussion about the inevitability of all T2's ending up on insulin.  The statement quoted by one contributor was that 50% of all T2's will be on insulin within 6 to 10 years.  
    I suspect that a more accurate statement would be along the lines of, "50% of all T2's who eat jam doughnuts will be on insulin within six to 10 years".
    What are your thoughts?

    Sally

    *anyone wishing to read this discussion will find that the thread was headed, "Diet".
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    zand
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    Re: All T2's end up on insulin eventually?????

    Post by zand on Wed Sep 17 2014, 10:16

    Yes my thoughts are similar to yours Sally. Those type of discussions usually spur me on to try harder with low carbing, but then I'm trying to follow LCHF already anyway. I think those still eating jam doughnuts on a regular basis would probably adopt the attitude that insulin will be necessary for them anyway one day, whatever their diet, so why bother changing now? Very sad.
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    Andy12345
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    Re: All T2's end up on insulin eventually?????

    Post by Andy12345 on Wed Sep 17 2014, 10:27

    it makes no sense to me, although i don't know the science, the reasons we are unable to use the insulin properly even if that worsens, won't mean injecting insulin will help surely? i could understand the statement 50% of type 2's will be likely to tolerate less carbs but not need more insulin, but maybe in getting it all wrong:) as per
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    Paul1976
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    Re: All T2's end up on insulin eventually?????

    Post by Paul1976 on Wed Sep 17 2014, 10:44

    It's nuts isn't it!! That appalling prognosis doesn't surprise me with the NHS/DUK diet that's peddled,home BG testing is not needed,fats are bad etc...
    Although insulin therapy is suitable for some Type 2's who have reached the stage where they simply aren't making enough natural insulin of their own and cannot gain good control by low carbing alone-the opposite is true for most Type 2's who have too much insulin in their system-more insulin=more weight gain=more insulin resistance=more insulin injected=more weight gain etc etc...This is not a good cycle to be part of and insulin is certainly not a get out of jail free card for type 2 diabetics...I once said this elsewhere along with others-the thread was locked as this was deemed 'Dangerous advice' Rolling Eyes


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    Andy12345
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    Re: All T2's end up on insulin eventually?????

    Post by Andy12345 on Wed Sep 17 2014, 10:47

    but if they are not producing insulin wouldn't that make them type 1.5? clearly after this much time i should know this but i thought the definition of a type 2 was they were producing enough but couldn't use it properly?
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    Re: All T2's end up on insulin eventually?????

    Post by Paul1976 on Wed Sep 17 2014, 10:57

    @Andy12345 wrote:but if they are not producing insulin wouldn't that make them type 1.5? clearly after this much time i should know this but i thought the definition of a type 2 was they were producing enough but couldn't use it properly?

    Type 1.5 is autoimmune and there's not a lot you can do about it apart from low carb and a small amount of insulin whereas a type 2 who has run high BG's for many years can end up in the situation where nearly all the pancreatic beta cells have been burned out by them flogging their pancreas to death for years on a high carb diet and then they'll be in a position where they're not making enough of their own insulin...insulin will then be needed in that case.(Although if they're insulin resistant as well it will be tricky to manage I would imagine)


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    Re: All T2's end up on insulin eventually?????

    Post by Andy12345 on Wed Sep 17 2014, 11:24

    so insulin using type 2 is effectively the same as type 1.5 but caused by a different thing? why i wonder would not everyone not just diabetics that live on a high carb diet for many years develop beta cell destruction? if it is only diabetics experiencing the destruction then it must be more than just an overworked pancreas therefor making it more inline with autoimmune?
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    Re: All T2's end up on insulin eventually?????

    Post by Paul1976 on Wed Sep 17 2014, 11:33

    @Andy12345 wrote:so insulin using type 2 is effectively the same as type 1.5 but caused by a different thing? why i wonder would not everyone not just diabetics that live on a high carb diet for many years develop beta cell destruction? if it is only diabetics experiencing the destruction then it must be more than just an overworked pancreas therefor making it more inline with autoimmune?

    I couldn't answer that mate TBH...Why some folks develop T2 and not others is a mystery to me-especially as T2's come in all shapes and sizes despite what the media portray about it always being down to being overweight...I went on a DESMOND course when they thought I was T2 and 90% of the folks on the course were slim.


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    Re: All T2's end up on insulin eventually?????

    Post by Andy12345 on Wed Sep 17 2014, 11:35

    my friends wife has just been diagnosed type 2 and is as thin as the thinnest person you could imagine, i know its a common story
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    EvenMoreHeathen
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    Re: All T2's end up on insulin eventually?????

    Post by EvenMoreHeathen on Wed Sep 17 2014, 11:41

    I don't know where the OP in the original thread got their figures from, and suspect it is somewhat dodgy. The upside of those figures ( should it be true ) is that 50% won't end up on insulin .

    I think that it is a correct assumption that IF a Type 2 is using meds as a get out of jail free card, and upping those meds to cope with a diet of tablespoons of sugar, jam doughnuts and a bag of bananas ( what the hell is that all about ? Rolling Eyes ) Then their pancreas will be fried and unable to produce insulin..

    As for those who are non diabetic and following a " normal " high carb diet becoming diabetic or not, only time will tell . Given the current figures for the numbers of new diabetics being diagnosed, I think the writing is on the wall .

    Signy
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    Eddie
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    Re: All T2's end up on insulin eventually?????

    Post by Eddie on Wed Sep 17 2014, 16:39

    None of us know what is in store for us, who knows if a type two will end up on insulin. It seems logical to me, the less work we give the beta cells, the longer they will last. Also, if a type two low carber goes onto insulin, they will only require small amounts hopefully. Insulin using type two diabetics, have up to three times the mortality rate as a non insulin using type two. However, this is dose dependent. Yet again we see less carbs, equals less meds, equals more reliable and predictable control and less complications.

    Low carb high fat is there any other way ? in six years plus of searching I have not found it.

    Eddie


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    Type two diabetic-low carb diet (50 carbs per day) and two 500mg Metformin pills per day. Apart from diagnosis HbA1c almost 12-all HbA1c results none diabetic. For over eight years my diabetes medication has not changed. My weight has remained stable, I have suffered no ill effects from my diet whatsoever. Every blood test has proved, I took the right road to my diabetic salvation. For almost seven years, I have asked medical professionals and naysayers, how do I maintain non diabetic BG levels on two Metformin other than low carb ? The silence has been deafening !
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    Mud Island Dweller
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    Re: All T2's end up on insulin eventually?????

    Post by Mud Island Dweller on Wed Sep 17 2014, 17:03

    Yup my lovely dr informed me that all diabetics end up on insulin on Dx along with if l don't lower my glucose will be sooner not later he will put me on it....no info on HOW to lower he is a .... though we don't get on.

    Lets face it we all die at some point and if you walk in front of a bus it will be sooner rather than later so avoid walking in front of buses.

    cold ethyl
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    Re: All T2's end up on insulin eventually?????

    Post by cold ethyl on Wed Sep 17 2014, 20:13

    Daft question time as I'm not as well versed in this as rest of you, but if insulin raises the mortality rates of type 2s, does that mean that those diagnosed with type 1, particularly those diagnosed very early , have a greatly increased risk of early death? Is it the imprecision of insulin use to control BS levels that is the problem or what? I must admit I haven't read much about type 1, insulin and mortality stuff as I freak out enough at times as it is. Can't help but think that low carbing and preserving pancreatic function are the way forward and can understand the evidence that suggests most type2s will end up on insulin given the current dietary advice.
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    Jan1
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    Re: All T2's end up on insulin eventually?????

    Post by Jan1 on Wed Sep 17 2014, 20:51

    @cold ethyl wrote:Daft question time as I'm not as well versed in this as rest of you, but if insulin raises the mortality rates of type 2s, does that mean that those diagnosed with type 1, particularly those diagnosed very early , have a greatly increased risk of early death? Is it the imprecision of insulin use to control BS levels that is the problem or what? I must admit I haven't read much about type 1, insulin and mortality stuff as I freak out enough at times as it is. Can't help but think that low carbing and preserving pancreatic function are the way forward and can understand the evidence that suggests most type2s will end up on insulin given the current dietary advice.

    Not a daft question at all and I can only speak as a non diabetic but I think what you say makes perfect sense to me, "Can't help but think that low carbing and preserving pancreatic function are the way forward and can understand the evidence that suggests most type2s will end up on insulin given the current dietary advice."

    I'm sure one of our diabetic members will follow me shortly with their thoughts. sunny

    All the best Jan
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    EvenMoreHeathen
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    Re: All T2's end up on insulin eventually?????

    Post by EvenMoreHeathen on Wed Sep 17 2014, 21:15

    @cold ethyl wrote:Daft question time as I'm not as well versed in this as rest of you, but if insulin raises the mortality rates of type 2s, does that mean that those diagnosed with type 1, particularly those diagnosed very early , have a greatly increased risk of early death? Is it the imprecision of insulin use to control BS levels that is the problem or what? I must admit I haven't read much about type 1, insulin and mortality stuff as I freak out enough at times as it is. Can't help but think that low carbing and preserving pancreatic function are the way forward and can understand the evidence that suggests most type2s will end up on insulin given the current dietary advice.

    Short answer - it depends . Years ago the prognosis for a Type 1 diagnosed in childhood was gloomy, but there are many who are in their 50 year + anniversaries of diagnosis and still going strong. So it's not a definite.most of those though were diagnosed when carb restriction was the norm, it's only a recent phenomena that you are told to match what you eat with insulin, and in my opinion that is the worst possible advice . The consequence is that many Type 1's now eat unlimited amounts of carbs, and take ever increasing amounts of insulin as they gain weight and struggle to get good control . It's not their fault - they are only doing what they are told to do.

    Insulin doesn't have to be imprecise, it's far better managed on low carb and it does take a lot of effort to get it right ( I'm talking for myself here, I aim for tight control using multiple daily injections, and calculate for everything, but still don't always get it right due to a number of factors )

    It's not being on insulin per se that increases the chances of mortality in either types . And I have yet to see evidence that it does , in itself. It's the complications from poor control that causes death. Included in that is the risk of DKA and hypo . But mortality would happen a damn sight sooner without insulin Rolling Eyes

    Signy

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    Re: All T2's end up on insulin eventually?????

    Post by cold ethyl on Wed Sep 17 2014, 22:17

    Thanks for that. That is sort of what I thought but wasn't sure. My plasterer ( female) developed tyoe 1 in her thirties and is on insulin but seems to eat a high carb diet albeit low GI. I did talk to her about low carbing but her argument was she has a very physical job so burns them off. May well be true but I do worry about her long term once her activity slows down with age. I can't help but think that whatever the future holds , the less dependency on meds with all their side effects the better.
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    Re: All T2's end up on insulin eventually?????

    Post by graham64 on Wed Sep 17 2014, 23:01

    I reckon the the dietary advice dished out by DUK/NHS is a fast track to insulin for us Type2, the eatwell plate is a prime example of the lunacy that will guarantee a fast track progression on to meds and eventually insulin.

    Fruit and vegetables: 33%
    Bread, rice, potatoes pasta and other starchy foods: 33%
    Milk and other dairy products : 15%
    Meat, fish, egg, beans and other non-diary sources of protein: 12%
    Foods and drinks high in fat or sugar: 7%


    http://www.newhealthguide.org/The-Eatwell-Plate-Percentages.html

    I'm in my seventh year now and still only take one metformin, Hana and IanD at the other place have been T2 for around fourteen years still only on metformin.  David Mendosa diagnosed 1995 controlled his diabetes with a low GI diet and meds till changing to LCHF in 2008 which enabled him to ditch Byetta and six years on is meds free.

    http://www.mendosa.com/lowcarb.htm


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    Re: All T2's end up on insulin eventually?????

    Post by Eddie on Thu Sep 18 2014, 11:02

    Type two diabetics on insulin and other drugs.

    Those on Metformin therapy had the lowest death rates, so that group was used as the reference.

    In terms of primary outcome—that is, consideration of first adverse events only:

    Sulfonylurea therapy resulted in patients being 1.4 times more likely to suffer one of these outcomes.

    A combination of Metformin and Insulin resulted in 1.3 times greater risk.

    Insulin therapy alone resulted in 1.8 times greater risk.

    Those considered to be at greater risk because of glycosylated hemoglobin had as much as 2.2 times greater risk with Insulin therapy alone. When considering any of these events happening, whether they were the first event or a subsequent one, the results were even more dramatic:

    Insulin monotherapy resulted in:
    2.0 times more myocardial infarctions.

    1.7 time more major adverse cardiac events

    1.4 time more strokes

    3.5 times more renal complications

    2.1 time more neuropathy

    1.2 times more eye complications

    1.4 times more cancer

    2.2 times more deaths

    This information extracted from this study. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3612791/

    Eddie


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    Type two diabetic-low carb diet (50 carbs per day) and two 500mg Metformin pills per day. Apart from diagnosis HbA1c almost 12-all HbA1c results none diabetic. For over eight years my diabetes medication has not changed. My weight has remained stable, I have suffered no ill effects from my diet whatsoever. Every blood test has proved, I took the right road to my diabetic salvation. For almost seven years, I have asked medical professionals and naysayers, how do I maintain non diabetic BG levels on two Metformin other than low carb ? The silence has been deafening !
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    Sally
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    Re: All T2's end up on insulin eventually?????

    Post by Sally on Thu Sep 18 2014, 18:45

    Thank you all for your (intelligent and reasoned) thoughts.

    One thing I have noticed, is that T2's who tell me they are on sulphonylureas or insulin, invariably have a bowl of chips and a pint in front of them, but then perhaps I just spend too much time in the pub!
    Sally
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    Re: All T2's end up on insulin eventually?????

    Post by graham64 on Thu Sep 18 2014, 21:38

    @Sally wrote:Thank you all for your (intelligent and reasoned) thoughts.  

    One thing I have noticed, is that T2's who tell me they are on sulphonylureas or insulin, invariably have a bowl of chips and a pint in front of them, but then perhaps I just spend too much time in the pub!
    Sally

    That's the problem Sally some T2s think drugs are a get out of jail free card and eat what they like without considering the consequences. Sulphonylureas have been linked to a significantly increased all cause mortality risk, insulin as highlighted by Eddie is another that can have the same risks for T2s especially in higher doses.





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    Andy12345
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    Re: All T2's end up on insulin eventually?????

    Post by Andy12345 on Thu Sep 18 2014, 21:45

    but they are told this by the docs Sad who wouldnt want to believe it? the doctor said its so and its "easier" as far as they are concerned, to carry on eating crap as they are and take the meds
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    Re: All T2's end up on insulin eventually?????

    Post by Eddie on Thu Sep 18 2014, 21:53

    @Andy12345 wrote:but they are told this by the docs Sad who wouldnt want to believe it? the doctor said its so and its "easier" as far as they are concerned, to carry on eating crap as they are and take the meds

    This is the sort of "crap" I eat and keeps my BG numbers to non diabetic, good lipids and stable weight. Eat "crap" and live a long and active life.



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    Type two diabetic-low carb diet (50 carbs per day) and two 500mg Metformin pills per day. Apart from diagnosis HbA1c almost 12-all HbA1c results none diabetic. For over eight years my diabetes medication has not changed. My weight has remained stable, I have suffered no ill effects from my diet whatsoever. Every blood test has proved, I took the right road to my diabetic salvation. For almost seven years, I have asked medical professionals and naysayers, how do I maintain non diabetic BG levels on two Metformin other than low carb ? The silence has been deafening !
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    Re: All T2's end up on insulin eventually?????

    Post by zand on Thu Sep 18 2014, 21:56

    That looks yummy Smile
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    Re: All T2's end up on insulin eventually?????

    Post by Andy12345 on Thu Sep 18 2014, 22:00

    ack! fish lol or smelly feet?
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    Re: All T2's end up on insulin eventually?????

    Post by Eddie on Thu Sep 18 2014, 22:01

    Andy I luv ya, but you need locking up at times. lol!


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    Type two diabetic-low carb diet (50 carbs per day) and two 500mg Metformin pills per day. Apart from diagnosis HbA1c almost 12-all HbA1c results none diabetic. For over eight years my diabetes medication has not changed. My weight has remained stable, I have suffered no ill effects from my diet whatsoever. Every blood test has proved, I took the right road to my diabetic salvation. For almost seven years, I have asked medical professionals and naysayers, how do I maintain non diabetic BG levels on two Metformin other than low carb ? The silence has been deafening !

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