The Low Carb Diabetic

Promoting a low carb high fat lifestyle for the safe control of diabetes. Eat whole fresh food, more drugs are not the answer.


Welcome to the Low Carb Diabetic forum,have you signed up yet? if not then sign up and join us in the low carb community today!

    Fasting - A History Dr Jason Fung

    Share
    avatar
    beardie
    Member

    Status :
    Online
    Offline

    Posts : 157
    Join date : 2015-04-05

    Re: Fasting - A History Dr Jason Fung

    Post by beardie on Sun Apr 19 2015, 15:07

    @Paul1976 wrote:Don't you just wish HCP's would finally distinguish between 'Cured' and 'Well controlled' eh Beardie?


    The problem is they are 100% convinced it is nothing to do with control. They refuse to accept that is even possible. banghead
    avatar
    Paul1976
    Moderator

    Status :
    Online
    Offline

    Male Posts : 2436
    Join date : 2014-08-12
    Age : 41
    Location : East midlands,UK

    Re: Fasting - A History Dr Jason Fung

    Post by Paul1976 on Sun Apr 19 2015, 15:13

    @beardie wrote:
    @Paul1976 wrote:Don't you just wish HCP's would finally distinguish between 'Cured' and 'Well controlled' eh Beardie?


    The problem is they are 100% convinced it is nothing to do with control. They refuse to accept that is even possible. banghead

    It's bullshit isn't it!! My highest HbA1c was 130 (14.1%) and my best was 31 (4.9%) and at 4.9% I'm sure many non enlightened HCP's would say that I am no longer diabetic,sadly I am and if I went back to eating the NHS diet I would be blowing readings over 34 mmol after eating again,low carb gives me non diabetic readings with a small amount of insulin but I'm far from being cured.


    _________________
    Illegitimi non carborundum
    avatar
    beardie
    Member

    Status :
    Online
    Offline

    Posts : 157
    Join date : 2015-04-05

    Re: Fasting - A History Dr Jason Fung

    Post by beardie on Sun Apr 19 2015, 15:16

    @Paul1976 wrote:
    @beardie wrote:
    @Paul1976 wrote:Don't you just wish HCP's would finally distinguish between 'Cured' and 'Well controlled' eh Beardie?


    The problem is they are 100% convinced it is nothing to do with control. They refuse to accept that is even possible. banghead

    It's bullshit isn't it!! My highest HbA1c was 130 (14.1%) and my best was 31 (4.9%) and at 4.9% I'm sure many non enlightened HCP's would say that I am no longer diabetic,sadly I am and if I went back to eating the NHS diet I would be blowing readings over 34 mmol after eating again,low carb gives me non diabetic readings with a small amount of insulin but I'm far from being cured.


    Annoying this is that if I had taken the meds they offered me at diagnosis they would probably accept I am diabetic even with my results.
    avatar
    OldTech
    Member

    Status :
    Online
    Offline

    Male Posts : 81
    Join date : 2014-08-14
    Location : Seattle USA

    Re: Fasting - A History Dr Jason Fung

    Post by OldTech on Sun Apr 19 2015, 16:42

    @beardie wrote:
    @beardie wrote:
    @OldTech wrote:My current average for postprandial is 4.7. I have only seen spikes to around 5.5 6 times in the last 3 months. As I said it is amazing constant.
    Those results are at least as good as the non diabetics I have tested. I am no doctor and have never had diabetic medication, but I wonder if you need that amount of metformin?

    Brilliant results, better than mine and they say I am cured. Did you say what your HbA1 c result is?

    Oops just noticed it in your signature. I have never seen one as low as that.

    I too wonder if I need the metformin and do plan on tapering off it sometime in the future to see if I still need it. Right now I want to give my body some more time to adjust to the new normal before stressing it.

    For me this is all about having normal blood glucose as defined by Dr. Bernstein. He defines normal as an A1c below 4.7 and a blood glucose that is relatively constant. I know that there are studies that show that normal includes spikes up to 140 mg/dl (7.8 mmol/l), but that is for people eating a modern high carb diet of which some 30 to 50% will end up diabetic. So I now think that Dr. Bernstein is right. Normal does not include spikes.

    A year ago I though that this goal was impossible. I was eating very low carb (ketogentic) and had gotten my A1c down to 4.7, but I was still spiking to 120 mg/dl and could not seem to keep below 100 mg/dl (5.5 mmol/l). That is when I first started resistant starch. That seemed to help but I still was having difficulties keeping below 100 mg/dl (5.5 mmol/l). Then last September I went to daily fasting of 14-16 hours per day (my two meals with no snacks). That gave me periods where I would stay below 100 (5.5) so I kept it up. Then in January something seemed to switch on and I got my new normal.
    avatar
    beardie
    Member

    Status :
    Online
    Offline

    Posts : 157
    Join date : 2015-04-05

    Re: Fasting - A History Dr Jason Fung

    Post by beardie on Sun Apr 19 2015, 17:16

    @OldTech wrote:
    @beardie wrote:
    @beardie wrote:
    @OldTech wrote:My current average for postprandial is 4.7. I have only seen spikes to around 5.5 6 times in the last 3 months. As I said it is amazing constant.
    Those results are at least as good as the non diabetics I have tested. I am no doctor and have never had diabetic medication, but I wonder if you need that amount of metformin?

    Brilliant results, better than mine and they say I am cured. Did you say what your HbA1 c result is?

    Oops just noticed it in your signature. I have never seen one as low as that.

    I too wonder if I need the metformin and do plan on tapering off it sometime in the future to see if I still need it. Right now I want to give my body some more time to adjust to the new normal before stressing it.

    For me this is all about having normal blood glucose as defined by Dr. Bernstein. He defines normal as an A1c below 4.7 and a blood glucose that is relatively constant. I know that there are studies that show that normal includes spikes up to 140 mg/dl (7.8 mmol/l), but that is for people eating a modern high carb diet of which some 30 to 50% will end up diabetic. So I now think that Dr. Bernstein is right. Normal does not include spikes.

    A year ago I though that this goal was impossible. I was eating very low carb (ketogentic) and had gotten my A1c down to 4.7, but I was still spiking to 120 mg/dl and could not seem to keep below 100 mg/dl (5.5 mmol/l). That is when I first started resistant starch. That seemed to help but I still was having difficulties keeping below 100 mg/dl (5.5 mmol/l). Then last September I went to daily fasting of 14-16 hours per day (my two meals with no snacks). That gave me periods where I would stay below 100 (5.5) so I kept it up. Then in January something seemed to switch on and I got my new normal.


    Are you feeling generally healthy?
    avatar
    OldTech
    Member

    Status :
    Online
    Offline

    Male Posts : 81
    Join date : 2014-08-14
    Location : Seattle USA

    Re: Fasting - A History Dr Jason Fung

    Post by OldTech on Sun Apr 19 2015, 18:18

    @beardie wrote:Are you feeling generally healthy?

    Yes. However, I should say that I do have health issues, but for a 70 year old its not that bad. I can still tackle fairly heavy jobs such a bucking up a tree for firewood. BTW: I spent my career at a desk doing statistics and programming.

    I'm 5'7'' with a weight of 135 lbs. I had stents inserted in 2007 and prescribed statins (which I now blame along with the low fat diet for my diabetes). My blood pressure is still little high (systolic 130 - 140) which is why I am doing cardio most days. I have to take synthroid because I have no thyroid due to thyroid cancer 60 years ago. I also take calcitriol (active form of vitamin D) because I live in Washington State. To manage my electrolytes I supplement with potassium, magnesium, calcium, and salt. For heart heath I take vitamin K2 and CoQ10. Along with the resistant starch I also take 1 cove of garlic a day.
    avatar
    beardie
    Member

    Status :
    Online
    Offline

    Posts : 157
    Join date : 2015-04-05

    Re: Fasting - A History Dr Jason Fung

    Post by beardie on Sun Apr 19 2015, 18:31

    @OldTech wrote:
    @beardie wrote:Are you feeling generally healthy?

    Yes. However, I should say that I do have health issues, but for a 70 year old its not that bad. I can still tackle fairly heavy jobs such a bucking up a tree for firewood. BTW: I spent my career at a desk doing statistics and programming.

    I'm 5'7'' with a weight of 135 lbs. I had stents inserted in 2007 and prescribed statins (which I now blame along with the low fat diet for my diabetes). My blood pressure is still little high (systolic 130 - 140) which is why I am doing cardio most days. I have to take synthroid because I have no thyroid due to thyroid cancer 60 years ago. I also take calcitriol (active form of vitamin D) because I live in Washington State. To manage my electrolytes I supplement with potassium, magnesium, calcium, and salt. For heart heath I take vitamin K2 and CoQ10. Along with the resistant starch I also take 1 cove of garlic a day.

    Absolutely amazing.
    avatar
    zand
    Member

    Status :
    Online
    Offline

    Female Posts : 1940
    Join date : 2014-08-14

    Re: Fasting - A History Dr Jason Fung

    Post by zand on Sun Apr 19 2015, 18:35

    @OldTech wrote:
    @beardie wrote:Are you feeling generally healthy?

    Yes. However, I should say that I do have health issues, but for a 70 year old its not that bad. I can still tackle fairly heavy jobs such a bucking up a tree for firewood. BTW: I spent my career at a desk doing statistics and programming.

    I'm 5'7'' with a weight of 135 lbs. I had stents inserted in 2007 and prescribed statins (which I now blame along with the low fat diet for my diabetes). My blood pressure is still little high (systolic 130 - 140) which is why I am doing cardio most days. I have to take synthroid because I have no thyroid due to thyroid cancer 60 years ago. I also take calcitriol (active form of vitamin D) because I live in Washington State. To manage my electrolytes I supplement with potassium, magnesium, calcium, and salt. For heart heath I take vitamin K2 and CoQ10. Along with the resistant starch I also take 1 cove of garlic a day.

    Wow! I agree with Beardie that is amazing! Smile
    avatar
    beardie
    Member

    Status :
    Online
    Offline

    Posts : 157
    Join date : 2015-04-05

    Re: Fasting - A History Dr Jason Fung

    Post by beardie on Sun Apr 19 2015, 19:55

    What was your A1c when diagnosed?
    avatar
    Indy51
    Member

    Status :
    Online
    Offline

    Female Posts : 344
    Join date : 2014-08-14
    Location : Perth, Western Australia

    Re: Fasting - A History Dr Jason Fung

    Post by Indy51 on Mon Apr 20 2015, 00:13

    And another article on the benefits of fasting:

    http://news.nationalpost.com/health/therapeutic-fasting-741073

    Part of the article says:
    "Fasting has been likened to a “reset” button that returns the human body to its (healthy) factory settings. A study published last year by Prof. Longo’s team at USC, drawing on animal and human trials, concluded that three days of fasting can rejuvenate the immune system, triggering the production of new white blood cells. Other studies show that fasting can enable healthy cells to endure better the toxic impact of chemotherapy while cancer cells die more rapidly. It is a fascinating area of research that draws on the body’s evolutionary adaptation."

    Your results are absolutely amazing OldTech and have given me even more motivation to continue with my 17 hour per day intermittent fasting experiment. Day 40 today and results haven't been as dramatic as I might have liked, but will keep plugging as I'm still in the slightly overweight category and suspect my personal fat threshold is very low. Onwards and (hopefully) downwards  run
    avatar
    OldTech
    Member

    Status :
    Online
    Offline

    Male Posts : 81
    Join date : 2014-08-14
    Location : Seattle USA

    Re: Fasting - A History Dr Jason Fung

    Post by OldTech on Mon Apr 20 2015, 04:12

    @Indy51 wrote:Your results are absolutely amazing OldTech and have given me even more motivation to continue with my 17 hour per day intermittent fasting experiment. Day 40 today and results haven't been as dramatic as I might have liked, but will keep plugging as I'm still in the slightly overweight category and suspect my personal fat threshold is very low. Onwards and (hopefully) downwards

    Just to be clear I am not sure what was responsible for my new 'normal' since it was not even a proper N=1 trial where you just vary one thing.

    I am however starting to think that the major factor is getting normal blood glucose using a ketogenic state. Fasting, intermittent fasting, and LCHF diets are all ways of getting to the ketogenic state. However, there is still a lot that we do not know. For example, is deep ketosis more effective than mild ketosis? If that is true then that might explain why intermittent fasting coupled with LCHF may be more effective since intermittent fasting should deepen the ketosis achieved by LCHF (at least part of the time). It would also explain why fasting has shown results (it is deep ketosis). Note: I do not recommend fasting more than a few days unless it is medically supervised.
    avatar
    mo1905
    Moderator

    Status :
    Online
    Offline

    Male Posts : 2303
    Join date : 2014-08-10
    Location : Cambs

    Re: Fasting - A History Dr Jason Fung

    Post by mo1905 on Mon Apr 20 2015, 10:50

    Sounds like the jury's maybe out on this one but whatever the reason, you're managing fantastic control @OldTech :-)


    _________________
    Type1, Humalog and Solostar, Metformin, Lisinopril ( BP ), last HbA1C 41 ( 5.9% ), 20th Oct 2014, HbA1C 43 ( 6.1% ) 9th Mar 2015.
    avatar
    mo1905
    Moderator

    Status :
    Online
    Offline

    Male Posts : 2303
    Join date : 2014-08-10
    Location : Cambs

    Re: Fasting - A History Dr Jason Fung

    Post by mo1905 on Mon Apr 20 2015, 19:29

    Just spotted another recent headline regarding the health benefits of fasting, although this seems more focussed on nocturnal fasting. Read here:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11550243/Fasting-at-night-lowers-risk-of-breast-cancer-and-diabetes.html


    _________________
    Type1, Humalog and Solostar, Metformin, Lisinopril ( BP ), last HbA1C 41 ( 5.9% ), 20th Oct 2014, HbA1C 43 ( 6.1% ) 9th Mar 2015.
    avatar
    beardie
    Member

    Status :
    Online
    Offline

    Posts : 157
    Join date : 2015-04-05

    Re: Fasting - A History Dr Jason Fung

    Post by beardie on Mon Apr 20 2015, 20:27

    Until I was about 30, I would pass out if I went more than about 8 hours without food. I am reluctant to fast for too long. Before diagnosis I was eating one meal a day.
    avatar
    mo1905
    Moderator

    Status :
    Online
    Offline

    Male Posts : 2303
    Join date : 2014-08-10
    Location : Cambs

    Re: Fasting - A History Dr Jason Fung

    Post by mo1905 on Mon Apr 20 2015, 20:46

    Fasting isn't something I could really consider with work & lifestyle either but I guess it suits some.


    _________________
    Type1, Humalog and Solostar, Metformin, Lisinopril ( BP ), last HbA1C 41 ( 5.9% ), 20th Oct 2014, HbA1C 43 ( 6.1% ) 9th Mar 2015.
    avatar
    zand
    Member

    Status :
    Online
    Offline

    Female Posts : 1940
    Join date : 2014-08-14

    Re: Fasting - A History Dr Jason Fung

    Post by zand on Mon Apr 20 2015, 20:51

    I don't think fasting did me any good. My body just got used to having no food and then I put on weight when I ate again. Sad
    avatar
    beardie
    Member

    Status :
    Online
    Offline

    Posts : 157
    Join date : 2015-04-05

    Re: Fasting - A History Dr Jason Fung

    Post by beardie on Mon Apr 20 2015, 20:55

    We are all different. That is the thing I have learned more than anything from my research.
    avatar
    OldTech
    Member

    Status :
    Online
    Offline

    Male Posts : 81
    Join date : 2014-08-14
    Location : Seattle USA

    Re: Fasting - A History Dr Jason Fung

    Post by OldTech on Wed Apr 22 2015, 00:17

    The paper "Glucose excursions and glycaemic control during Ramadan fasting in diabetic patients: Insights from continuous glucose monitoring (CGM)" in Diabetes & Metabolism (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S126236361400189X) is interesting. It also suggests that diabetic patients on insulin or insulin producing medication should be careful with intermittent fasting.
    avatar
    mo1905
    Moderator

    Status :
    Online
    Offline

    Male Posts : 2303
    Join date : 2014-08-10
    Location : Cambs

    Re: Fasting - A History Dr Jason Fung

    Post by mo1905 on Wed Apr 22 2015, 10:06

    Fasting whilst on insulin must be difficult to control well. Basal must be spot on and my guess is the possible benefits would not be worth the hassle. Anyone on insulin tried it ?


    _________________
    Type1, Humalog and Solostar, Metformin, Lisinopril ( BP ), last HbA1C 41 ( 5.9% ), 20th Oct 2014, HbA1C 43 ( 6.1% ) 9th Mar 2015.
    avatar
    Eddie
    Member

    Status :
    Online
    Offline

    Male Posts : 3792
    Join date : 2014-08-13
    Age : 68
    Location : London

    Re: Fasting - A History Dr Jason Fung

    Post by Eddie on Wed Apr 22 2015, 12:10

    @mo1905 wrote:Fasting whilst on insulin must be difficult to control well. Basal must be spot on and my guess is the possible benefits would not be worth the hassle. Anyone on insulin tried it ?

    Mo or other insulin users here, how often do you do a long fast to set up your basal routine ? and how long do you fast for ?


    _________________
    Type two diabetic-low carb diet (50 carbs per day) and two 500mg Metformin pills per day. Apart from diagnosis HbA1c almost 12-all HbA1c results none diabetic. For over eight years my diabetes medication has not changed. My weight has remained stable, I have suffered no ill effects from my diet whatsoever. Every blood test has proved, I took the right road to my diabetic salvation. For almost seven years, I have asked medical professionals and naysayers, how do I maintain non diabetic BG levels on two Metformin other than low carb ? The silence has been deafening !
    avatar
    mo1905
    Moderator

    Status :
    Online
    Offline

    Male Posts : 2303
    Join date : 2014-08-10
    Location : Cambs

    Re: Fasting - A History Dr Jason Fung

    Post by mo1905 on Wed Apr 22 2015, 13:36

    I only really do a basal test if my levels are not what I expect. I do a daytime test, usually for about 6hrs. I would test every hour.


    _________________
    Type1, Humalog and Solostar, Metformin, Lisinopril ( BP ), last HbA1C 41 ( 5.9% ), 20th Oct 2014, HbA1C 43 ( 6.1% ) 9th Mar 2015.
    avatar
    Indy51
    Member

    Status :
    Online
    Offline

    Female Posts : 344
    Join date : 2014-08-14
    Location : Perth, Western Australia

    Re: Fasting - A History Dr Jason Fung

    Post by Indy51 on Sat Apr 25 2015, 08:03

    Next instalment of Dr Fung's series on fasting is up:

    https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/fasting-and-growth-hormone-physiology-part-3/

    I'm up to day 45 of my intermittent fasting (compressed eating window of 7-8 hours/16-17 hours fasting) experiment and so far so good - the weight loss is a bit disappointing with only 3.5kgs lost so far. However, the BG levels are responding quite well - getting regularly fasting levels in the mid 5's and yesterday got my lowest (that I know of) random level at 4.3. Trying to keep to under 1200 cals (2 meals) a day.

    Finding it really suits me and thus is surprisingly easy to keep to thus far.

    Would like to lose another 3-5 kgs if possible, but will see how it goes. I guess slow weight loss is to be expected when you're on the very upper edge of normal BMI.


    avatar
    mo1905
    Moderator

    Status :
    Online
    Offline

    Male Posts : 2303
    Join date : 2014-08-10
    Location : Cambs

    Re: Fasting - A History Dr Jason Fung

    Post by mo1905 on Sat Apr 25 2015, 10:08

    3.5Kgs is a decent weight loss Indy but as you say, there are other benefits too which make it work for you. Please continue to update with your progress and thanks for the link.


    _________________
    Type1, Humalog and Solostar, Metformin, Lisinopril ( BP ), last HbA1C 41 ( 5.9% ), 20th Oct 2014, HbA1C 43 ( 6.1% ) 9th Mar 2015.
    avatar
    Jan1
    Member

    Status :
    Online
    Offline

    Female Posts : 4514
    Join date : 2014-08-13

    Re: Fasting - A History Dr Jason Fung

    Post by Jan1 on Sat Apr 25 2015, 12:36

    @Indy51 wrote:Next instalment of Dr Fung's series on fasting is up:

    https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/fasting-and-growth-hormone-physiology-part-3/

    I'm up to day 45 of my intermittent fasting (compressed eating window of 7-8 hours/16-17 hours fasting) experiment and so far so good - the weight loss is a bit disappointing with only 3.5kgs lost so far. However, the BG levels are responding quite well - getting regularly fasting levels in the mid 5's and yesterday got my lowest (that I know of) random level at 4.3. Trying to keep to under 1200 cals (2 meals) a day.

    Finding it really suits me and thus is surprisingly easy to keep to thus far.

    Would like to lose another 3-5 kgs if possible, but will see how it goes. I guess slow weight loss is to be expected when you're on the very upper edge of normal BMI.




    Thanks for the link Indy ... and well done on your weight loss. It's good to hear this 'regime' suits you.  Smile

    All the best Jan
    avatar
    Indy51
    Member

    Status :
    Online
    Offline

    Female Posts : 344
    Join date : 2014-08-14
    Location : Perth, Western Australia

    Re: Fasting - A History Dr Jason Fung

    Post by Indy51 on Sat May 02 2015, 02:34

    The next instalment in Dr Fung's fasting series - Fasting & Lipolysis:
    https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/fasting-and-lipolysis-part-4/

    Sponsored content

    Re: Fasting - A History Dr Jason Fung

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat Apr 21 2018, 09:02